NSFCD

^{This is sure to provoke some indignant responses. Also, sorry for the wall of text.}

PLEASE READ THIS FIRST: Now, before you get scared by this giant wall of text (probably the largest I've ever posted), you should know that I would greatly appreciate it if you read as much of it as you can (if not all of it) before posting. Before posting, you should at least read the first paragraph and the key points of each example. Thanks for your thoughts and have fun!

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Camping; "Legit" or B.S.? What is considered camping and why? Give the whats, "whos", whens, wheres, and whys of your explanation (and obviously the game and game type). Also, is sniping considered camping? Giving examples is encouraged, but makes things very specific. It's advised that you think about what exactly you're saying about what area of the debate before posting (i.e. camping in some games may be different from that of others).

Camping has been most of a problem for me in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, not that I can't kill the campers; it's just that they always return to the same spot (in Demolition and Domination anyway). Returning to the tactic of camping in general, this makes the game much less fun for everyone who wants a fair game. Personally, I see a difference between camping and defending. There is (in my opinion) a distinction between camping and legitimate defending. My own loose interpretation of defending a single area can be defined as "actively moving about the large surrounding area that must be defended in order to cover as many weaknesses/paths as possible." In my opinion, in any game, camping is staying in the same spot (with or without knowing if it is currently a high traffic path) and waiting without reasonable expectation for a usually unknowing opponent to enter within range of a usually easy kill. I'll give examples that will hopefully pertain to many if not all games that have campers (I'll draw pictures if they'll help):

Camping situation: Player A represents the camper. Player B represents the "victim" (a term which I use loosely, as it can be interpreted in different ways) and/or opposing team/players.
Player A knows that Player B will walk into a room that's a popular spot. Player A deliberately crouches, goes prone, or possibly otherwise conceals him or herself in a corner that has an easy view of the doorway of the room, but is in a blind spot of Player B (or is good cover). Knowing only that Player B will probably enter this room and not accurately knowing when he or she will enter, Player A looks at the doorway with his or her weapon drawn, ready for an easy kill. When Player B enters the room, he or she will most likely not have enough time to react (in any way) to Player A's attack, which will most likely kill Player B.

Key points of camping:

• Player A knows only that Player B will probably enter an area
• Player A does not accurately know when Player B will enter that area

Not camping situation: Player A represents the first player to see his or her opponent and attack. Player B represents the player that takes cover.
Player A is moving about on the battlefield looking for a potential kill. He or she sees Player B, who does not see Player A, and attacks, nearly killing Player B. Player B--with little health (or any other measure of any similar concept)--tries to stay alive by running into a building and taking cover in a corner. Knowing that Player A will pursue his or her now weak target, Player B takes up position in that corner and readies him or herself for Player A to come through the door that he or she had recently passed through and counterattack Player A. If Player A does not enter the room or surrounding area within a reasonable amount of time (which will vary depending on the game and game type), then Player B--having recovered from his or her previous disadvantage which may or may not include low health and/or readying his or her weapon--will leave the area seeking another encounter which may or may not be with Player A.

Key points of not camping:

• Player A is actively moving around and looking for a potential kill (as opposed to sitting and waiting for one)
• Player B knows that Player A will probably enter the room within seconds of their recent encounter
• Player B is at (and is recovering from) a legitimate disadvantage
• Player B does not stay in the area that he or she used to stabilize his or her chance of success after regaining that chance

Legitimate defending (no camping): Player A represents the opposing team/player(s). Player B represents the defender. Point 1, and later Point 2, represent areas that Player B must defend.
Player B has been assigned the task of defending Point 1 from the attacks of Player A, who may move toward Point 1 from any number of directions (in this case, a finite number). Player B (without camping)--without the knowledge of the path that Player A will take--can defend Point 1 by periodically checking each entrance to the area by actively moving to each entrance and possibly occasionally going outside the boundaries of Point 1 and its entrances. If Player B must simultaneously defend Point 1 and Point 2, then this technique can be employed in the case of both areas. Similarly, without the knowledge of which area Player A will attack, Player B can defend both areas by actively moving to each one and checking for any undesirable activity.

Key points of legitimately defending:

• Player B covers many entrances to a number of areas without staying in the same spot
• Player B actively moves about (as in largely nonstop, possibly with a few very short stops) each section of each area in which he or she must defend

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Alright, just read what's in bold (for those who didn't even read the first paragraph that says "PLEASE READ THIS FIRST" :|).

C'mon, won't someone please make a meaningful, thought out, well-worded, response?

God... eh... Every time I remember about this thread I'm too tired to take it serious. Will read sooner or later =(

Take your time. :) One serious and thought-provoking response is well worth the effort.

Honestly I think if some idiot keeps returning to the same spot, he's very predictable target and a easy kill.

I love camping <3

I camp in every game I play.  Smash bros, tf2, I even camp in marvel vs capcom 2.

Quote from: CommanderFlint on February 27, 2010, 09:00:09 AM
Honestly I think if some idiot keeps returning to the same spot, he's very predictable target and a easy kill.

Yes, that's what helps me kill them easily. However, if they've found a good camping spot and are not removed from their spot, that is the problem; not their return to that spot.

Quote from: Rorschach on February 27, 2010, 10:50:55 AM
I love camping <3

I camp in every game I play.  Smash bros, tf2, I even camp in marvel vs capcom 2.

How can you camp in a fighting game? Also, TF2 is one of the few games where I can understand camping (at least in defending a point, but not spawn camping).

Note: I'm doing this at school, so expect spelling errors.

CAMPING SITUATION:
This is becoming more of a problem for games like MW2. With the addition of custom killstreaks (and the Nuke to bring a huge point), people resort to these tactics because of this. With easy kills comes higher K/D ratio and more killstreaks. I will admit, I do camp on MW2. And people who play with me know this. HOWEVER, I do not stay in the same spot. I will get my kill, then retreat/move up. One of the better camping situations is something me and my friends do. On many maps for games, you can find the 2-3 'Hot Zones' of a map that the enemy team is required to go through in order to move up. Taking control of all of these spots and camping them give us a huge advantage for objective and killing gametypes. And when this happens to us, we applaud the enemy team for the tactics. Camping can become the deciding factor in games like this.

On another point, when it is just a random player, camping can become obvious and isn't too bad. Sometimes, they'll get in that spot with the shotgun or other weapon, and the only chance to get them out is a grenade. And when you don't have one, it's only your fault. Really, camping in all is NOT a good strategy when it is not used with a team.


NOT CAMPING SITUATION:
Probably one of the biggest issue with people on games like Battlefield. When you are getting shot, and there is a house in front of you, obvious reactions tell you to get in. Once inside, you still have too low health, so another obvious thing is to wait behind cover. This is obvious reactions. What should not be obvious reaction is for the enemy to run into an enemy controlled building with no clue where the enemy is and attempt to take them down. One of the biggest reason I don't play Battlefield games is because of how idiotic people are on it. While other games people will try to use the camping advantage, people run around like chickens with their heads cut off. And when that camping situation happens, most people get mad. On MW2, the same thing happens with the same consequences from the opponents. HOWEVER, most people don't talk on MW2 anyways so its good with me.

This is one of the most useful techniques for staying alive and should be a legit strategy. What do you want? A nice counter to protect you or to just sit there and prepare to say your prayers in the middle of the room?


DEFENDING:
An easy case. He is running around and defending both. A position where he could see both would be an acceptable position and would be fine to 'camp'. In a position like this, chances are the enemy can see you too. Running around will also leave you open, but helps defend the objectives. This is a lose/lose/win/win situation.

I think camping is fine. It's a strategy, and if you can't kill a guy who keeps returning to the same spot, that's your problem.
I'd rather not camp, but if a lot of the other team keeps heading into the same area, I'll probably camp out there to kill them all.

In my opinion camping is fine to an extent if you know someones coming. Its plain instinct for some people. However if said person is camping in the same area for the entire game that's a problem.

Quote from: CommanderFlint on February 27, 2010, 09:00:09 AM
Honestly I think if some idiot keeps returning to the same spot, he's very predictable target and a easy kill.

This.


But don't ninny about camping.
In a real gun fight, you're not gonna run out guns a blazing. You're gonna sit and wait for someone stupid enough to walk past your gun.

If a guy is standing in a corner waiting for a kill, a grenade should solve that situation quite nicely, and explosively.

No offense, but I think you're all missing the point a bit (I do agree with most--if not all--of what Magnum said though). If someone keeps returning to the same spot, that's someone who's failing at camping, and therefore, not a problem. Also, if you make it to the side of the map that the enemy spawns in and run around killing them--in my opinion--that's not camping either. But if they spawn in a confined area and you stay in one place and keep killing them--preventing them from leaving--, that's camping. I'm talking about the guy who sits in one place with good cover and waits there for a 10 killstreak--as in, your team can't kill him easily. Of course a cooked grenade can kill most campers, but the "skilled" ones can get around or prevent that.

Also, if you know that someone is coming, it's not camping either. Please refer to the "Not Camping Situation" in the first post.

Much thanks for the thread activity though. I must've spent an hour or so writing all that.

Honestly, unless in certain situations (Like skywalking in TF2 why hasn't Valve fixed that on the 360 ;-; or Spawncamping) You really have no excuse. A smart person would either flank the camper, or just downright go around the general area he camps. If a camper gets more than one kill, that's not as much his fault as it is the other team's fault for thinking they can get him by running right up to him.

/rant

Quote from: RX-78-2 on March 11, 2010, 11:58:16 AM
No offense, but I think you're all missing the point a bit (I do agree with most--if not all--of what Magnum said though). If someone keeps returning to the same spot, that's someone who's failing at camping, and therefore, not a problem. Also, if you make it to the side of the map that the enemy spawns in and run around killing them--in my opinion--that's not camping either. But if they spawn in a confined area and you stay in one place and keep killing them--preventing them from leaving--, that's camping. I'm talking about the guy who sits in one place with good cover and waits there for a 10 killstreak--as in, your team can't kill him easily. Of course a cooked grenade can kill most campers, but the "skilled" ones can get around or prevent that.

Also, if you know that someone is coming, it's not camping either. Please refer to the "Not Camping Situation" in the first post.

Much thanks for the thread activity though. I must've spent an hour or so writing all that.

Oh, here is something me and you have different views on then. I personally watch quite a bit of MLG (GOW2 is AMAZING!) and on the Halo and CoD games, locking down the enemy is one of the best things a team can do. Me and a couple of friends actually practice doing this as well. I find this to be more skillful to have the communication and reaction, plus knowledge of the map and game (even the other player) to be able to get a full on lock. Very hard, very fulfilling.

Quote from: Captain Underpants on March 15, 2010, 07:40:13 AM
Honestly, unless in certain situations (Like skywalking in TF2 why hasn't Valve fixed that on the 360 ;-; or Spawncamping) You really have no excuse. A smart person would either flank the camper, or just downright go around the general area he camps. If a camper gets more than one kill, that's not as much his fault as it is the other team's fault for thinking they can get him by running right up to him.

/rant

To tell you the truth, I can't exactly tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. Also, by "you," do you mean me personally, or just "the player" (as in "the player really [has] no excuse")? I agree with you though. Those are obvious ways to avoid a camper, but sadly, they just don't always work.

To your TF2 comment, I agree as well (I play on Xbox 360). Skywalking does need to be patched--not because it helps the team that uses it, but hurts it. Skywalking is very easy to get around and similarly easy to destroy. Only a noob would think this helps the team, but 3 of them just try to glitch up in sky (doing nothing for the team) while the rest are defending the point at a huge disadvantage. The same goes for "skywalking" underneath the stage. The only case of this that I've seen is at Point A in Gravel Pit, but this is much harder to get around.

Concerning spawncamping, it's just cheap and takes no skill. The campers should be killed easily if there's less than 4 of them without a Demoman. However, the campers usually take full advantage of the opportunity, which makes even one Demoman a problem.

Quote from: F'lar on March 15, 2010, 03:01:30 PM
Oh, here is something me and you have different views on then. I personally watch quite a bit of MLG (GOW2 is AMAZING!) and on the Halo and CoD games, locking down the enemy is one of the best things a team can do. Me and a couple of friends actually practice doing this as well. I find this to be more skillful to have the communication and reaction, plus knowledge of the map and game (even the other player) to be able to get a full on lock. Very hard, very fulfilling.

While I disagree on the result of locking down your enemy (which, in my opinion, is camping), I do agree that it takes skill to able to perfectly set up this technique. It's just that once it's set up, it's takes very little skill to get kills and stay alive, and therefore makes it much less fair--and in my opinion--fun.