NSFCD Pokedex - Starter/Legendary Discussion

[Kayo]

Either replacing or adding on to the suggestions you guys already have. Could even be both.

[spoiler=My Ideas:]
Gen 1:
Baby Kanga - If Kangaskhan gets a prevo, I was thinking the prevo could evolve into a new Pokémon if it's male.

Gen 2:
Girafarig - It's a giraffe, but it's neck isn't tall. I also like the back end, which could be something epic.
Octillery - A Kraken type thing. Water/Dark

Gen 3:
Sableye - I think this thing could turn epic if done right. A bunch of gems in it's back, it's eyes bigger diamonds.
Mawile - The idea of Mawile is awesome, maybe make it even better with an evo? (When female) It looks like a beautiful woman. It lures men in, and walks away, then when they catch up it BITES THEIR FREAKIN' HEADS OFF WITH IT'S HAIR.

Gen 4:
Cherrim - It changes when there's sunshine. For some reason this makes me want to make an evo that does the same, except looks awesome in some way when in sunshine.

Gen 5:
Druddigon - Prevo? IDK, for some reason he looks like he would have a cool prevo.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=My thoughts on your ideas:]
Gen 1:
Farfetch'd - A long stick that looks similar to a spear? Actually. K's tree idea gave me an idea that probably won't be liked, but I kinda like. Fly/Fighting. (You know, like the Timburr family, if he's holding a tree, he must be strong)
Kangaskhan - FINE FINE. It should look a bit different than the one in the pouch though. Needs some weird incense to make it.
Pinsir - Some epic giant beetle that's part steel comes to mind. Bug/Steel?

Gen 2:
Dunsparce - It digs, so part ground? Normal/Ground? or stay pure Normal?
Qwilfish - ... Just a bigger puffer fish? Sure?
Corsola - ... A giant coral reef Pokémon? Why not?

Gen 3:
Torkal - This can turn into an epic fire turtle.

Gen 4:
...

Gen 5:
Audino - Works for me. Audino seemed too underused anyway.
Basculin - Could work. Blue one based on some type of stat while Red is based on another? Not too fond of the idea, but it could be something pretty cool.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=directed at Jr's ideas]On baby Kanga:
Perhaps it can only evolve with it's female? I don't like the idea of a separate pokemon if Male. Burmy was pushing it (And I didn't even like those. Cool gimmick, execution could have been better.) I'd say make it something like Combee: Some gender difference, and it will only evolve at all if it's female.

On Girafarig: I'm very afraid of what this will look like to be honest. I wouldn't.

On Octillery: Yes, but not Water/Dark. Some other typing would be nice. Make it some special kind of Kracken (I'm talking a Water/Electric or something)

On Sableye: On second thought, sure. It's just too weak. Something could work with this thing. Perhaps something that can levitate: Four immunities and no weaknesses, so in that case it would have to be frail-looking to hit at low defenses to not make it seem overpowered. I know we're not talking metagame, but if we do improve Sableye we shouldn't make it bulkier. Spiritomb already is a defensive Sableye. More offensive, please.

Mawile: Please, no. I love Mawile too much, it's already intercourse ing adorable. It doesn't need to be anything more. PLEASE.

Cherrim: Why. It's the reason I'm not looking for a Castform evo. For this one though, it would rely heavily on "Can we get a design idea? If not, scrap it." I'm against it unless someone comes up with something REALLY good.

Druddigon prevo: It would be easy enough.

Farfetch'd: Take away the normal type? Okay. Not feeling the "Make it like Timburr" thing.

Kangaskhan: Why so different? It evolves into a Kangaskhan. I already suggested it be much bigger than the pouchling.

Pinsir: Gah, so many Bug/Steels already. Okay four. But still, it's one of those typings that was good when one or two Pokemon had it (niche much?) but it we overuse it... bleh.

Dunsparce: Yep. Normal/Ground is a bad type, but it's okay.

Qwilfish: I really want to do this. We'll figure something out.

Corsola: I see ya.

Torkoal: Back on Oldsider I had designed a Torkoal evo with a more volcano-like back.. it was Fire/Rock. If we do this we'd have to set it apart from the Fire/Ground volcano camels, Numel and Camerupt.

Audino: It's Chansey. Just barely doesn't cut it as is. Evo would be cool.

Basculin: If the two forms look completely different, I'm almost for it. You gotta convince me more though.[/spoiler]

[JrDude]

[spoiler=My Response]Baby Kanga - Burmy was weird and I never understood the purpose of it evolving into 2 different Pokémon based on gender, probably because I did no research on it and have no idea what Burmy or it's evos are supposed to be.

Girafarig - But look at it. The idea behind Girafarig is cool, but it's never even thought of much. If we make a cool looking idea based on the giraffe dark (psychic) tail thing, then it could be even cooler.

Octillery - Water/Electric? Why not Water/Dark? If you don't like that, we can use the "Hades created it" excuse to make it Water/Fire as it's a giant octopus hell creature. Octillery can learn fire moves even (I think maybe only Flamethrower, but whatever), so it could work.
I was thinking that, in order for Octillery to be able to evolve into it, you need to have captured the Dark Horse (or used theif on it) and use an item the horse is holding and give it to Octillery, then trade it, or maybe level it up underwater or something (still while holding the item).

Sableye - That could work. But we need to be careful with the hover thing, it still needs to look fairly similar to Sableye in a way.

Mawile - I agree with you in a way, I was just throwing ideas since 3rd gen was ignored a lot for this evo thing.

Cherrim - See above (except about Gen 4).

Farfetch'd - Just came to mind when you mentioned holding a tree. Gave me a Conkeldurr image in my head.

Kangaskhan - Not so different, a bit different.

Pinsir - Maybe Dark? Bug/Dark hasn't been used yet. Almost with Drapion, but not.

Qwuilfish - Convince me, because I'm not feeling it.

Torkoal - Volcanomon is already used. Why not keep the coal/furnace/smoky feel?[/spoiler]
If I didn't mention it, I had nothing to add on.

[Kayo]

[spoiler=My Response]Baby Kanga - Burmy was weird and I never understood the purpose of it evolving into 2 different Pokémon based on gender, probably because I did no research on it and have no idea what Burmy or it's evos are supposed to be.

Girafarig - But look at it. The idea behind Girafarig is cool, but it's never even thought of much. If we make a cool looking idea based on the giraffe dark (psychic) tail thing, then it could be even cooler.

Octillery - Water/Electric? Why not Water/Dark? If you don't like that, we can use the "Hades created it" excuse to make it Water/Fire as it's a giant octopus hell creature. Octillery can learn fire moves even (I think maybe only Flamethrower, but whatever), so it could work.
I was thinking that, in order for Octillery to be able to evolve into it, you need to have captured the Dark Horse (or used theif on it) and use an item the horse is holding and give it to Octillery, then trade it, or maybe level it up underwater or something (still while holding the item).

Sableye - That could work. But we need to be careful with the hover thing, it still needs to look fairly similar to Sableye in a way.

Mawile - I agree with you in a way, I was just throwing ideas since 3rd gen was ignored a lot for this evo thing.

Cherrim - See above (except about Gen 4).

Farfetch'd - Just came to mind when you mentioned holding a tree. Gave me a Conkeldurr image in my head.

Kangaskhan - Not so different, a bit different.

Pinsir - Maybe Dark? Bug/Dark hasn't been used yet. Almost with Drapion, but not.

Qwuilfish - Convince me, because I'm not feeling it.

Torkoal - Volcanomon is already used. Why not keep the coal/furnace/smoky feel?[/spoiler]
If I didn't mention it, I had nothing to add on.

[spoiler=in no particular order]Torkoal- It was a coal-furnace thing but the back shell grew up with a chimney-like feature that caused the shell to resemble a volcano. Note- resemble. It was mostly coincidence I decided to go with.

Baby Kanga- but YOU SAID to make it evolve into something else if it was male, did you not?

Girafarig- Did you see the original design of Girafarig? Wonder why they changed it. /sarcasm

Octillery- Water/Electric was just an example. WHY Water/Dark? Also, you idiots are trying desperately to use a Water/Fire idea. Give it a intercourse ing rest. Maybe Water/Dragon even, for hell's sake. Many Dragons can use fire moves, except Kingdra.. and I really don't see why there.

Sableye- I don't know it would look similar enough, but maybe it evolves into something that can levitate? Trying to think of if something did this in the apst but I don't remember. I knew Duskulll LOST the ability on evolution, but I'm not positive on whether something GAINED it.

Mawile- remove the idea from your head.

Cherrim- But not on a gimmick pokemon.

Farfetch'd- Except I thought Conkeldurr was... weird. I get it, but WHY must it ALWAYS carry two mysteriously-formed blocks of concrete with it everywhere? Also Gurdurr getting a perfectly-shaped man-made steel girder upon evolution? Don't even say "It just finds it" ..it spawns from a log. When it evolves. It's just... weird. A fighting-type generating some random man-made materials (a log like that is manmade- why else would it be cut so perfectly?) that change on evolution... yeah. It never stuck with me.

Kangaskhan- Very different. The pouchling is the fetus, we need to make the preschooler-age, so to speak. Much difference; it must look closer to Parent Khan than the baby.

Pinsir- I don't see Dark. It learns so many Fighting moves... but Heracross took that type and.. I don't know.

Qwilfish- That's not up to me. Convince me Basculin and we'll talk.[/spoiler]

[JrDude]

[spoiler=in no particular order]Torkoal- It was a coal-furnace thing but the back shell grew up with a chimney-like feature that caused the shell to resemble a volcano. Note- resemble. It was mostly coincidence I decided to go with.

Baby Kanga- but YOU SAID to make it evolve into something else if it was male, did you not?

Girafarig- Did you see the original design of Girafarig? Wonder why they changed it. /sarcasm

Octillery- Water/Electric was just an example. WHY Water/Dark? Also, you idiots are trying desperately to use a Water/Fire idea. Give it a intercourse ing rest. Maybe Water/Dragon even, for hell's sake. Many Dragons can use fire moves, except Kingdra.. and I really don't see why there.

Sableye- I don't know it would look similar enough, but maybe it evolves into something that can levitate? Trying to think of if something did this in the apst but I don't remember. I knew Duskulll LOST the ability on evolution, but I'm not positive on whether something GAINED it.

Mawile- remove the idea from your head.

Cherrim- But not on a gimmick pokemon.

Farfetch'd- Except I thought Conkeldurr was... weird. I get it, but WHY must it ALWAYS carry two mysteriously-formed blocks of concrete with it everywhere? Also Gurdurr getting a perfectly-shaped man-made steel girder upon evolution? Don't even say "It just finds it" ..it spawns from a log. When it evolves. It's just... weird. A fighting-type generating some random man-made materials (a log like that is manmade- why else would it be cut so perfectly?) that change on evolution... yeah. It never stuck with me.

Kangaskhan- Very different. The pouchling is the fetus, we need to make the preschooler-age, so to speak. Much difference; it must look closer to Parent Khan than the baby.

Pinsir- I don't see Dark. It learns so many Fighting moves... but Heracross took that type and.. I don't know.

Qwilfish- That's not up to me. Convince me Basculin and we'll talk.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Words and things]
Torkoal - With that it seems to be a good idea.

B Kanga - Yes I did, I seemed to end my point with Burmy for some reason. If we made a prevo but only let the female evolve, it would be weird. I mean, with Combee, it makes sense, female bees become queen bee eventually, while male bees are forever regular bees. With kangaroos, what do only female kangaroos grow up to kick ass? No.
Also, the Kangaroo idea isn't really shown much with Kangaskhan, Kangaroos like to hop around, and I don't think Kangaskhan hops around much (and if she did, I'd picture a loud ass thump every time she did). It seems they only used Kangaroo as an excuse to give her a pouch. There's only 1 Kangaroo Pokémon so far, why not make 1 more (with the 1 more we're adding)?

Girafarig - What does that have to do with anything..?

Octillery - Water/Dark because it's a Kraken, which is an evil octupus from hell, and the most recent image was from Clash of the titans which looks ultra evil, and evil is often associated with Dark. And Water/Fire came to mind because it's from hell as well, I wasn't trying to do it for any other reason. I'm not trying to do any creative types, the ideas that come to mind look like the type that I say in my mind. If I wanted Water/Fire so bad, I would have suggested it first, rather than Dark.
Also not Water/Dragon because that would be the second evo to change from 1 gen being pure water to the evo from a different gen being Water/Dragon.
In other words, Seadra already changed from Water to Water/Dragon through different gen evolution, we don't need a second.

Pinsir - I just told you of the image that came to mind. It can stay pure bug for all I care.

Qwilfish - So you're not telling me anything unless I tell you of Basculin..? This was originally your idea, you should tell me.
[/spoiler]

[Kayo]

[spoiler=Words and things]
Torkoal - With that it seems to be a good idea.

B Kanga - Yes I did, I seemed to end my point with Burmy for some reason. If we made a prevo but only let the female evolve, it would be weird. I mean, with Combee, it makes sense, female bees become queen bee eventually, while male bees are forever regular bees. With kangaroos, what do only female kangaroos grow up to kick ass? No.
Also, the Kangaroo idea isn't really shown much with Kangaskhan, Kangaroos like to hop around, and I don't think Kangaskhan hops around much (and if she did, I'd picture a loud ass thump every time she did). It seems they only used Kangaroo as an excuse to give her a pouch. There's only 1 Kangaroo Pokémon so far, why not make 1 more (with the 1 more we're adding)?

Girafarig - What does that have to do with anything..?

Octillery - Water/Dark because it's a Kraken, which is an evil octupus from hell, and the most recent image was from Clash of the titans which looks ultra evil, and evil is often associated with Dark. And Water/Fire came to mind because it's from hell as well, I wasn't trying to do it for any other reason. I'm not trying to do any creative types, the ideas that come to mind look like the type that I say in my mind. If I wanted Water/Fire so bad, I would have suggested it first, rather than Dark.
Also not Water/Dragon because that would be the second evo to change from 1 gen being pure water to the evo from a different gen being Water/Dragon.
In other words, Seadra already changed from Water to Water/Dragon through different gen evolution, we don't need a second.

Pinsir - I just told you of the image that came to mind. It can stay pure bug for all I care.

Qwilfish - So you're not telling me anything unless I tell you of Basculin..? This was originally your idea, you should tell me.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=fags and such]Well, we all like the idea of Qwilfish getting an evo. I shouldn't have to explain myself to you.

Octillery- Disregarding that until further intelligence. Seriously rethink what you're trying to tell me since I'm not going to even try to sift through that and find your argument.

Girafarig- It's stupid.

Kangaskid- No no, it should be big enough that it can survive the way it is if it's a male, but if it's a female the changes would be: Larger size (a lot of species have larger females than males- While I doubt this is true for kangaroos, why not?), added "armor" (mother has to protect her young- you see Kangaskhan's "protective padding"-like features.), and well, a baby. Kangaroos by themselves look pretty juvenile-- Kangaskhan is more like an armored, protective mother kangaroo. In this case, it would make sense if the kangaroo got these "protective and motherly" qualities if it went on to be a mother, i.e. if it was female. The evolution represents the transition into motherhood. How does this work? It's POKEMON. It actually makes plenty of sense if you think about it.

Pinsir- but it doesn't really need an evo. When Scyther evolved, it kept the SAME base stat total, but a new type and the relevant changes (It's now Steel-- higher defense, slower). Pinsir evolving without a type shift is dumb.[/spoiler]

[JrDude]

I find it stupid how just because you and Rob like it, means it's a good idea in your mind.

If you don't have to explain your ideas, then don't explain any since you're a retard.

What's Qwilfish gonna be? A bigger Pufferfish? you can't just say "Qwilfish gets an evo, I don't have to explain myself because 1 person agrees with me"

And Octillery, you're obviously a retard here.
Kraken = Evil giant octopus from hell.
Evil = Dark
Hell = Fire
Octillery evo = Water.
If it happened, Water/Dark or Water/Fire would be the best choice. You don't have to look hard, stop being a dumbass.

Girafarig - Oh good argument. You're stupid.
DO I WIN?!

So, because Kangaskhan is a protective mother, means there could be no protective fathers/male kangaroos? If it's motherhood thing, why not something like a rebellious child evo? (This idea just came to mind and I'm not even sure I like it. When an idea first comes to mind it almost always seems awesome, just roll with me here). A baby shouldn't only grow up if it's female if it can be male.

Pinsir - I agree here. I was just trying to think of things that would work since Rob threw the idea out there and Pinsir seems so alone.

[The Riddler]

Got tired of reading it all.

Farfetch'd Evo isn't carrying a tree. An onion leek would not become a tree. I see it carrying a full onion and using it as a Hammer or Mace, or sharpening it's leek into a sword.

Kraken makes sense as both Water/Fire and Water/Dragon. BOTH would work. Octillery DOES have fire moves and it's a monster from hell. It makes sense, and would be awesome typing.
============================

I had an idea for Kangaskhan that could work. Every generation introduces new ways to evolve/breed/etc.

For the sake of our dex, we introduce a new hold-item for Kangaskhan.
Evolution method:
"Level-up while holding ITEMNAMEHERE and one empty party slot."
Kangaskhan evolves into a new (not necessarily much stronger) version of Kangaskhan without the baby in it's pouch, and the baby (now a bit larger) takes the empty party slot.

Represents a mother letting her child go.

[JrDude]

That seems weird. Basing off of your idea, how about, you give Kangaskhan something, put it in the daycare alone and wait long enough for it to "lay an egg" and it will be a new form of Kangaskhan (without the baby, but not necessarily evolved, just a new form), and the daycare man will give you the baby (before you pick up Kangaskhan), not an egg. The Kangaskhan will be no % higher than it was when it was put it, but the baby will be bigger than it was when it was in the pouch (implying the daycare was helping the baby grow, and not the mom). I think this should bring the Kangaskhan's happiness to 0 (as it's sad about it's baby being gone) and... I'm looking too much into that.

Aaand, the baby should still be able to evolve into Mama (if female), and into some male Kangaroo.

[The Riddler]

That seems weird. Basing off of your idea, how about, you give Kangaskhan something, put it in the daycare alone and wait long enough for it to "lay an egg" and it will be a new form of Kangaskhan (without the baby, but not necessarily evolved, just a new form), and the daycare man will give you the baby (before you pick up Kangaskhan), not an egg. The Kangaskhan will be no % higher than it was when it was put it, but the baby will be bigger than it was when it was in the pouch (implying the daycare was helping the baby grow, and not the mom). I think this should bring the Kangaskhan's happiness to 0 (as it's sad about it's baby being gone) and... I'm looking too much into that.

Aaand, the baby should still be able to evolve into Mama (if female), and into some male Kangaroo.

The issue was that Kangaskhan already has a baby in it's pouch. It doesn't lay an egg to create that baby. The Pokemon we want is that baby.

Nincada evolves with an open slot in the party - Shedinja is produced in the party.
Mantyke and Remoraid are in the same party - Mantyke becomes Mantine.
Trade Karrablast with Shelmet and they both evolve.

All weird evolutions. The first being the most similar to my proposal.

Now if you were to give something to the Kangaskhan that would cause the baby to leave it's pouch (and into your empty slot), the Kangaskhan wouldn't still have a baby in it's pouch - it just lost it. Even with your daycare center idea, the Kangaskhan shouldn't still have a baby in it's pouch.

The hold-item is the only way I can think of it. The baby leaves the pouch into your open slot and grows into it's own Pokemon, and the Kangaskhan, now babyless, is a new Pokemon.

[JrDude]

Now if you were to give something to the Kangaskhan that would cause the baby to leave it's pouch (and into your empty slot), the Kangaskhan wouldn't still have a baby in it's pouch - it just lost it. Even with your daycare center idea, the Kangaskhan shouldn't still have a baby in it's pouch.

"new form of Kangaskhan (without the baby,"
Is what I said. It's still Kangaskhan, there's just no baby in the pouch. And then you pick up the baby from the daycare man, it's just not in an egg.
The problem I have with Kangaskhan evolving, is that we're just trying to get that baby out of the pouch.
With the daycare idea, Kangaskhan has a chance to let it's baby go because it's grown enough.
We could even do your idea I guess, but I find it weird that she has to evolve to let the baby out of the pouch.

[The Riddler]

"new form of Kangaskhan (without the baby,"
Is what I said. It's still Kangaskhan, there's just no baby in the pouch. And then you pick up the baby from the daycare man, it's just not in an egg.
The problem I have with Kangaskhan evolving, is that we're just trying to get that baby out of the pouch.
With the daycare idea, Kangaskhan has a chance to let it's baby go because it's grown enough.
We could even do your idea I guess, but I find it weird that she has to evolve to let the baby out of the pouch.

She doesn't HAVE to evolve to let the baby out, but letting the baby out evolves her.

Shelmet evolves when he loses his armor to Karrablast. He evolved when he lost something. I'm sure there are other examples I can't think of.

[JrDude]

I still like my long idea better, but whatever works.

[The Riddler]

Base one of the horses on this.

[Kayo]

Just skinned through. Wow Jr, you're a intercourse ing idiot. I mean seriously. JUST BECAUSE the Kraken CAN BE DESCRIBED as coming from hell, that in no way instantly screams Dark-type. In fact, when I think of hell I think of Fire more than Dark, and I even think of Electric a bit, though I really can't see why. It's somehow stuck in my head, but we shouldn't make Octokraken electric. I'm still feeling Water/Dragon, simply because it covers the same bases as Water/Fire but I like it better.

Also with all the idiocy coming out of this Kangaskhan thing, I say we just LEAVE KANGASKHAN OUT. There's too much going on with it already, what with hatching out of an egg with a baby in its pouch, and furthermore the fact that this baby was likely born by mammalian methods, considering a real kangaroo.

The Kangaskhan Evolves After Losing The Baby (and the baby becomes something else?) theory sounds good on paper, but way too complex for us to make it work in a simple, easy-to-understand way. We should't throw too many stupid items and such into here, as this isn't a stupid 10-year-old fandex. I strongly suggest we drop Kangaskhan for a while, since there's waaaayyyyy too much going on here for us to form anything. Way too much.

As far as Girafarig, I REALLY don't want to have to explain everything to you. I opted to quickly let it go because, I HATE this thing. Not Girafarig as is, but if it had two equal heads. HATE IT. HATE IT. HATE IT SO MUCH. I COULD write you paragraphs on it, I really could. But I sure as hell DON'T WANT TO. That is all. Leave it alone.


Jr, stop being stupid. Your long daycare idea is DUMB. We're not going far enough into complex game mechanics involving gameplay and whatnot. We're not intercourse ing around with the daycare to form new Pokemon. It's too...far from anything Pokemon has ever done. It's just far more complex than it's worth.

Okay, I'm going to design Octokraken with Water/Dragon in mind. I'm intercourse ing sick and tired of you trying to throw other types at me with little to nothing to back it up. There's NO REASON it HAS to be Water/Dark. We have some Water/Dark Pokemon. Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, I think something else, plus one of our starters is Water/Dark. Water/Dragon? Excluding legendaries we have only Kingdra. It's a cool typr. Water/Dark? Not so cool. Octokraken is going to be BIG. It deserves a much cooler typing than the same thing that lobster and that bullet shark share. Water/Dark just isn't doing it for me. There's my opinion.

Okay Rob which horse.

[The Riddler]

The Kangaskhan Evolves After Losing The Baby (and the baby becomes something else?) theory sounds good on paper, but way too complex for us to make it work in a simple, easy-to-understand way. We should't throw too many stupid items and such into here, as this isn't a stupid 10-year-old fandex. I strongly suggest we drop Kangaskhan for a while, since there's waaaayyyyy too much going on here for us to form anything. Way too much.

Too complex?
Evolves while holding item and having an empty space in the party.

OH SO COMPLEX.

>We shouldn't throw stupd items and such in - - - Stupid 10 year old fandex

Every generation introduces new methods of evolving and items to evolve with.

Gen1 - All of the evolution stones.
Gen2 - Dragon Scale, Kings Rock, Metal Coat, Up-Grade
Gen 3 - DeepSeaScale/Tooth
Gen 4 - Dubious Disc, Electrizer, Magmarizer, Protector, Reaper Cloth, Razor Claw, Oval Stone, Razor Fang
Gen 5 - Prism Scale

Sure, most of these are trade items, but that's irrelevant. They're different evolution methods all relating to items.

One item-based idea to make something that needs to be done isn't stupid.

The idea of Kangaskhan of a mother letting her child go is ace, none of you can deny that.

Kangaskhan
>Evolves into Babyless Kangaskhan when leveling up while holding an item.
>Baby Kangaskhan is produced in empty party slot.

It's not complex at all. It's not even new. It just combines two previous Pokemon methods. RazorClaw/Fang/Oval Stone + Level-Up and Nincada.

Ideas for names would also work around these:
Kangaskhan = Genghis Kahn
Other important Kahns:
Ogedei
Guyuk
Mongke