Let's Argue - Volume 1, Topic 2

[Wedge]

Let's Argue!

Volume 1

Hey Nsiders! Welcome to LET'S ARGUE! In this thread, we will be having full fledged arguments and debates that encompass several aspects of Pokemon. We will (hopefully) be having many hosts over this topic's existence, so if you have an idea for an argument or you just want to host one of these, feel free to shoot me a PM. However, in order for a thread like this to be successful, certain rules must be followed. Please don't screw this up.

Rules

1. Treat this as the Serious Discussion of the Pokemon Board. Do not post useless or stupid comments that don't contribute to the current discussion. Make sure your comments are correct or are at least backed up. Don't spout conjecture that no one can prove. Good ways to back up your argument are to cite your source, provide damage calculation, or something else on that line: I don't care what it is as long as it helps you prove your point. Opinions are fine too, just back them up!

2. Please know what you're talking about. If you're not a competitive battler and the discussion is currently about competitive battling, don't say useless things like, "I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun" because while we respect your opinion, you are not contributing to the conversation. Also, please don't make up facts to try and sound intelligent. If you don't know something about a topic, then look it up or ask about it, but don't make stuff up for the hell of it.

3. Try to stay on topic during discussions. If you have another idea for a topic, then go ahead and post it, but don't start a completely new discussion in the middle of the current one as that confuses everyone and makes the thread hard to follow.

4. Be tasteful and serious in your comments. This is not the thread to joke around on. Try not to attack other members when you are arguing. Fight the argument, not the arguer. Again, if you have something to say, back it up with a coherent and well-informed argument.

And now for the topic!

Topic

February 20, 2010

Category: Everything
Host: Wedge

To what extend should anything that alters the game in a way that the game designers did not intend be banished from any aspect of Pokemon? This includes things such as cheating, glitch abusing, hacking, special rules, and other such activities.

FINISHED
February 16, 2010

Category: Competitive Battling
Host: Wedge

How did the addition of Stealth Rock affect competitive battling and was its inclusion beneficial or detrimental to the metagame as a whole?

Have at it!

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

it was a cool concept, but overcomplicated the game just a wee bit. Though the use of rock-resists instead of opting for a spinner seemed to be the best choice over most. Then again, is less complicated a bad thing?

[Mikoyan]

I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun.

Speaking from a third gen perspective, Stealth Rock was more of an experiment than anything else. Spikes was simple and clear; one layer does damage, two layers do more damage, three layers do max damage. Now you have this Stealth Rock and these type advantages and disadvantage and what comes out of the crapper is a max of 50% shredded on a switch-in. It's quite ridiculous to have a one-turn move slice off a fourth or half of an opponent's health. In 3rd generation, you could do 25% damage, but you had to work your ass off for it. Stealth Rock, on the other hand, is a one-turn shot that seriously cripples whoever's on the other end (how many teams carry all SR resistant Pokes?). Spikes also doesn't hit everything; Stealth Rock does. Thus, you have a wider range of OHKOs, a statistical anomaly and imbalance, brought about by something as simple as one move. In the entire history of competitive battling there has not been a more game defining move than this; it hits everything for damage, no matter how insignificant, and tosses a somewhat balanced metagame into a grossly unbalanced one.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun.

Speaking from a third gen perspective, Stealth Rock was more of an experiment than anything else. Spikes was simple and clear; one layer does damage, two layers do more damage, three layers do max damage. Now you have this Stealth Rock and these type advantages and disadvantage and what comes out of the crapper is a max of 50% shredded on a switch-in. It's quite ridiculous to have a one-turn move slice off a fourth or half of an opponent's health. In 3rd generation, you could do 25% damage, but you had to work your ass off for it. Stealth Rock, on the other hand, is a one-turn shot that seriously cripples whoever's on the other end (how many teams carry all SR resistant Pokes?). Spikes also doesn't hit everything; Stealth Rock does. Thus, you have a wider range of OHKOs, a statistical anomaly and imbalance, brought about by something as simple as one move. In the entire history of competitive battling there has not been a more game defining move than this; it hits everything for damage, no matter how insignificant, and tosses a somewhat balanced metagame into a grossly unbalanced one.

That actually sums it up pretty well.

Sure as hell got rid of most flying types in the metagame, and gave rise to the NEW INDUSTRIAL AGE... and by that I mean there are a whole intercourse ing lot of steel types.

[Zero]

Which is why I don't understand why stealth rock isn't banned. If you're going to keep me from freezing/putting to sleep more than one pokemon(which is stupid because ice beam's chance to freeze is like 10 percent), keep me from using double team, minimize, sand attack, horn drill, etc, then why let a move like Stealth Rock through all the faggotry? Why not just play under "Anything goes" rules where all our teams consist of:

GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP

[So_So_Man]

Which is why I don't understand why stealth rock isn't banned. If you're going to keep me from freezing/putting to sleep more than one pokemon(which is stupid because ice beam's chance to freeze is like 10 percent), keep me from using double team, minimize, sand attack, horn drill, etc, then why let a move like Stealth Rock through all the faggotry? Why not just play under "Anything goes" rules where all our teams consist of:

GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP

Don't you mean
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
Cloister (sp?)

[Kayo]

Stealth Rock is why I gave up on competitive battling. Spikes was enough, and it was perfectly fine. I'm glad you brought this up. I absolutely DESPISE how certain pokemon, namely Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have been dropped straight to NU because of the move. I'm tired of building teams around it. "This pokemon is great, it's a great counter, and it has more than decent stats in both offense and defense, BUT NO. ITS WEAK TO STEALTH ROCK SO I CANT USE IT. And then I found out I had to breed for Rapid Spin. Seriously? Rapid Spin? It has no point whatsoever without entry hazards, why do I suddenly need this on every team? How about, we put this as a new battling clause. Stealth Rock Clause. What, you can ninny and whine if I manage to Hypnosis two of your pokemon to sleep, but I can take this 25% HP loss on 2 of my pokemon, and 12.5% on 2 more, and 50% on my Moltres? No! Whoever invented Sleep Clause because their pokemon weren't good enough to stand up against a fast hypnotizing Crobat, good for you. You forgot this. Stealth Rock changes the game completely. Take it out, and we also say goodbye to wasting a perfectly good moveslot to put Rapid Spin on my Starmie, rather than Psychic. Also, I can finally use Articuno. Good. We go back to the battling that I like.

Why can't this have a clause? I'm sure I'm not the only person mad about this move.

Seriously, GameFreak. You couldn't leave Spikes alone. If people want to knock 25% HP off half my pokemon, they sure as hell better work for it. Three turns. good. Now, one attack can completely cripple more than half my pokemon, and also this: type favoritism? Now the Steel and Fighting types get a huge advantage over the poor Fire-types, who get crippled when all they wanna do is battle. It makes everything grossly unbalanced, as Mikoyan said. I've had enough.

Thoughts.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

Stealth Rock is why I gave up on competitive battling. Spikes was enough, and it was perfectly fine. I'm glad you brought this up. I absolutely DESPISE how certain pokemon, namely Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have been dropped straight to NU because of the move. I'm tired of building teams around it. "This pokemon is great, it's a great counter, and it has more than decent stats in both offense and defense, BUT NO. ITS WEAK TO STEALTH ROCK SO I CANT USE IT. And then I found out I had to breed for Rapid Spin. Seriously? Rapid Spin? It has no point whatsoever without entry hazards, why do I suddenly need this on every team? How about, we put this as a new battling clause. Stealth Rock Clause. What, you can ninny and whine if I manage to Hypnosis two of your pokemon to sleep, but I can take this 25% HP loss on 2 of my pokemon, and 12.5% on 2 more, and 50% on my Moltres? No! Whoever invented Sleep Clause because their pokemon weren't good enough to stand up against a fast hypnotizing Crobat, good for you. You forgot this. Stealth Rock changes the game completely. Take it out, and we also say goodbye to wasting a perfectly good moveslot to put Rapid Spin on my Starmie, rather than Psychic. Also, I can finally use Articuno. Good. We go back to the battling that I like.

Why can't this have a clause? I'm sure I'm not the only person mad about this move.

Seriously, GameFreak. You couldn't leave Spikes alone. If people want to knock 25% HP off half my pokemon, they sure as hell better work for it. Three turns. good. Now, one attack can completely cripple more than half my pokemon, and also this: type favoritism? Now the Steel and Fighting types get a huge advantage over the poor Fire-types, who get crippled when all they wanna do is battle. It makes everything grossly unbalanced, as Mikoyan said. I've had enough.

Thoughts.

First of all Articuno is an awful pokemon anyway. Charizard and Moltres aren't much better. And stats aren't everything.

That being said, stealth rock didn't move any useful pokemon out of being useful. Most of those pokemon were frail/straightforward attackers anyway, so the HP loss didn't help them. The most it did was get rid of Focus Sash abuse, which would be a lot more annoying than stealth rocks.

Sleep clause and Freeze clause are different though. Those two statuses render your pokemon useless for an amount of time based on luck. The point of the clauses are to maximize the use of skill and minimize the role of luck while still keeping as many moves in as possible. And of course one could ask "BUT CONFUSION IS STILL LEGAL AND IT'S BASED ON LUCK!!!!" which is true, but you can just switch out and it's gone. So it's not a huge problem, and even if you didn't switch out then you still at least stand a chance. Were Sleep clause not there it would effectively overcentralize the metagame around sleep, and it would be all about who put who to sleep first. Which would be a god awful metagame.

The difference between this and stealth rocks is that, while it is a major game changer, it doesn't break the game. There are plenty of pokemon resistant to it, and it has it's checks and balances. It's not "unfair" because everyone can use it, it always works, it doesn't make anything unable to be played (if you play it right... except shedinja, but shedinja sucks anyway). Besides, most flying-types got a roost as a recovery move that heals *GASP* 50%!

So it's not broken.

[Macawmoses]

I don't mind Stealth Rock myself. It's an absolutely nasty move, but when you have something like that, it just changes the meta game. Using a Smash Bros. comparison (where Meta Knight is broken), you're going to have all the players exploiting everything they know about him to try and take the character out. If anything, using a character (or, in this case, move) that is overabused is ultimately going to be cause for the game to shift. As was said, I can't really name many flying types that were that grand in OU as is, so all it does is just make those people think twice anyways.

I also don't think it is overpowered. It does up to 50%. Well guess what, if that flying type comes out and gets hit with stone edge, it'd likely be thankful for that 50%. I do admit that the fact it needs out only once is a bit concerning, but there are still the OHKO moves.

[Kayo]

First of all Articuno is an awful pokemon anyway. Charizard and Moltres aren't much better. And stats aren't everything.

That being said, stealth rock didn't move any useful pokemon out of being useful. Most of those pokemon were frail/straightforward attackers anyway, so the HP loss didn't help them. The most it did was get rid of Focus Sash abuse, which would be a lot more annoying than stealth rocks.

So, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

Sleep clause and Freeze clause are different though. Those two statuses render your pokemon useless for an amount of time based on luck. The point of the clauses are to maximize the use of skill and minimize the role of luck while still keeping as many moves in as possible. And of course one could ask "BUT CONFUSION IS STILL LEGAL AND IT'S BASED ON LUCK!!!!" which is true, but you can just switch out and it's gone. So it's not a huge problem, and even if you didn't switch out then you still at least stand a chance. Were Sleep clause not there it would effectively overcentralize the metagame around sleep, and it would be all about who put who to sleep first. Which would be a god awful metagame.

Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair. :|

The difference between this and stealth rocks is that, while it is a major game changer, it doesn't break the game. There are plenty of pokemon resistant to it, and it has it's checks and balances. It's not "unfair" because everyone can use it, it always works, it doesn't make anything unable to be played (if you play it right... except shedinja, but shedinja sucks anyway). Besides, most flying-types got a roost as a recovery move that heals *GASP* 50%!

Obviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move. :|

So it's not broken.

:|

I don't mind Stealth Rock myself. It's an absolutely nasty move, but when you have something like that, it just changes the meta game. Using a Smash Bros. comparison (where Meta Knight is broken), you're going to have all the players exploiting everything they know about him to try and take the character out. If anything, using a character (or, in this case, move) that is overabused is ultimately going to be cause for the game to shift. As was said, I can't really name many flying types that were that grand in OU as is, so all it does is just make those people think twice anyways.

So with what your saying, it just backs up the point that there should be a clause for it. It's extremely overused.

I also don't think it is overpowered. It does up to 50%. Well guess what, if that flying type comes out and gets hit with stone edge, it'd likely be thankful for that 50%. I do admit that the fact it needs out only once is a bit concerning, but there are still the OHKO moves.

Be thankful for the 50%, so a single Ice Shard will take the poor bird out in a single hit, when it wouldn't if it had full HP. Also, there's a clause for OHKO moves. They're usually banned from battling, so that point is next to useless in this situation. Still, Stealth Rock should take 2-3 turns for maximum setup seeing as it does so much.

[Macawmoses]

My point was for type advantage moves, like stone edge, that can do OHKO when matched correctly. Not fissure. Try again K.

[Wedge]

K, please don't make a mockery of this thread. Stop using words like "HURR", at the very least in this thread, because they're tasteless, don't improve your argument, add nothing to the conversation, and make you look like an idiot. That being said, ":|" is not an adequate counterargument either. If you're going to say something, back it up. Also, don't reword what people are saying because that often changes the meaning and you'll end up arguing with yourself.

So, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

No, that's actually not what he's saying. While I partially disagree with his statement, he does not say, nor does he intend to say, "Spikes and Stealth Rock do the same thing".

Stealth Rock and Spikes are two similar moves that accomplish different things. Stealth Rock is used on almost every team for several reasons:

1. It takes one turn to set up, allowing offensive teams to make good use of it
2. It is accessible to an enormous amount of Pokemon, so placing it on a team isn't too difficult
3. It hits every single Pokemon in the game, allowing it to stop your opponent from freely switching around your moves, and as Drez pointed out, it stops Focus Sash abuse
4. It allows certain 2HKOs and 3HKOs to be turned into OHKOs and 2HKOs respectively, a godsend for offensive teams which need to prevent its Pokemon from being hit as much as possible
5. It helps to check some of the most fearsome offensive threats in the game that would otherwise have much more freedome

Spikes, on the other hand, is available to only a limited number of Pokemon, takes many turns to set up to achieve a desired result, and fails to hit a third of the Standard metagame. However, stacking it with Stealth Rock (or even Toxic Spikes) is an excellent way to create passive damage and if abused with moves such as Roar, Perish Song, or Leech Seed turns into a powerful strategy that can wear an opponent down quite quickly. This is the essence of a stall team and why they have become so effective.

That is not to say Spikes is useless, however. Spikes works well against Pokemon such as Swampert, Heatran, Blissey, and the like since they don't really care about damage from Stealth Rock. 25% damage on each switch in severely limits their freedom of use, especially if they are lacking a recovery move. Many Pokemon that are barely affected by Stealth Rock are severely hindered by the presence of Spikes. Stop trying to compare Stealth Rock and Spikes because they are two different moves used for two different purposes.

Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair.

No one is making you waste a move for Rapid Spin. In fact, most teams in Standard don't even bother to carry a spinner anymore and instead prefer to either play around Stealth Rock or build a team that is not affected by it too much. Stealth Rock's primary purpose is to impose a 'switching penalty' so that you have to think more carefully about your moves and can't just dance around by switching back and forth. It also stops things like Salamence and Gyarados from being more daunting of a prospect to face than they already are.

So with what your saying, it just backs up the point that there should be a clause for it. It's extremely overused.

Just because something is overused does not mean there should be a clause for it. There should only be a clause for something if it impacts the metagame in such a way that it creates an environment where varied competition cannot properly function. Stealth Rock does not affect the variability of the metagame to an extent where it should be banned. Every Pokemon that is worth using is still usable and completely viable. There are also plenty of ways to stop Stealth Rock from being set up in the first place such as scarfed sleep leads, fast taunt leads, etc etc. It doesn't 'break' the game though, at least not to the extent introducing Kyogre into Standard would, and therefore does not warrant a ban.

Obviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move.

Sure, let's ignore the fact that Shedinja is killed by any entry hazard, burn, poison, sandstorm, hail, pursuit, or faster supereffective move. Let's also ignore the fact that it cannot do anything against most opponents, so even if you somehow do succeed in stopping an onslaught, you're both going to have to make a blind switch lest your opponent bring in something like SD Empoleon and sweep. Shedinja is only useful in Ubers (if even there) because, yes, it stops Kyogre and there are Rain/Sun effects to cancel out SS/Hail. You still have to watch out for ubiquitous entry hazards though.

Roost is an excellent move because it negates the Rock/Ice/Electric weakness that flyers have which is very useful when you're fighting/trying to stall a Pokemon with those moves (aka Skarmory vs. Gyarados or something). I really don't see what you have against roost as plenty of flying types and levitating Pokemon carry it.

Be thankful for the 50%, so a single Ice Shard will take the poor bird out in a single hit, when it wouldn't if it had full HP. Also, there's a clause for OHKO moves. They're usually banned from battling, so that point is next to useless in this situation. Still, Stealth Rock should take 2-3 turns for maximum setup seeing as it does so much.

Ice Shard is only carried by Mamoswine and Weavile, both of whom are dealt with by something like Bronzong or a fast fighting-type such as Infernape and once they're taken out, something like Salamence will easily be able to sweep... except for the presence of Stealth Rock which knocks its HP down a bit and allows a faster Pokemon or something like Scizor to defeat it. Scizor does not kill a full health Salamence with Bullet Punch while Salamence can retaliate with Fire Blast and continue its sweep.

Your Sleep Clause Argument is weak. Being able to sleep multiple Pokemon results in a completely unbalanced metagame. You say that aromatherapy solves the problem, but what happens if your aromatherapy user gets slept? Someone can just use an Agility Smeargle and sleep an entire team then proceed to sweep with a DDmence or something. A metagame without sleep clause would revolve around the use of spore and fast sleep to incapacitate an entire opposing team, then sweep with something while the opponent is completely helpless. What if you just left your pokemon in until they woke up? Well then the smeargle can just use those free turns to set up Belly Drum or Spikes or something. Point is, unlimited sleep is much more broken than stealth rock is. It does damage every Pokemon, but it does not put anyone at so much of a disadvantage that it breaks the game, especially when both players can have it up at the same time. Wish, healing moves, smart teambuilding, and careful playing can minimize the effects of Stealth Rock while an Agility Smeargle without sleep clause is like a Groudon playing in NU. It's gamebreaking and there is a reason that its been banned.

Also, I kind of wrote the guide on entry hazards, so I probably have some vague idea what I'm talking about. just fyi ;)

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

So, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

The only thing is different between spikes/toxic spikes and stealth rocks is the resist/weakness mechanic, which is nice for a move that can't be absorbed like Toxic Spikes. It never changed the game by itself, it just moved less adept pokemon off the charts faster.

Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair. :|

What a dumb arguement.

You don't HAVE to have a moveslot for Rapid Spin. There are pokemon that function perfectly well in Stealth Rocks without Rapid Spin having to be there. It's not even advised that you HAVE rapid spin unless it's really into your strategy.

And of course if it WAS in your strategy, I trust you're smart enough to make it work to the point where you're not complaining.

Obviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move. :|

obviously you don't even know how bad Shedinja sucks. Especially in this metagame and how it's sucked so much more before it. Even without SR and Sandstorm (because honestlly T-tar usage has gone down) there are so many pokemon that shedinja can't do poop to, and a lot of them are used. And as Wedge said, while it can be used in Ubers SORTA, ubers is not OU, which is the metagame we're discussing. Tons of pokemon carry pursuit, and have been carrying pursuit for a really long time. Back in the day before SR got really popular T-Tar was around all the time. So Shedinja's NEVER been good. Just romanticized.

[Mikoyan]

Stealth Rock and Spikes are two similar moves that accomplish different things. Stealth Rock is used on almost every team for several reasons:

1. It takes one turn to set up, allowing offensive teams to make good use of it
2. It is accessible to an enormous amount of Pokemon, so placing it on a team isn't too difficult
3. It hits every single Pokemon in the game, allowing it to stop your opponent from freely switching around your moves, and as Drez pointed out, it stops Focus Sash abuse
4. It allows certain 2HKOs and 3HKOs to be turned into OHKOs and 2HKOs respectively, a godsend for offensive teams which need to prevent its Pokemon from being hit as much as possible
5. It helps to check some of the most fearsome offensive threats in the game that would otherwise have much more freedom.

While I don't think that Stealth Rock completely breaks the bank, these bullets demonstrate my view of it. A metagame that should be based on creativity and tactics is reduced quite simply to power and more power. In third generation no one (or two) paradigms dominated almost each team; everything was varied, unpredictable, and, most importantly, novel. My experiences in both gens have had me asking questions like: Where are my defensive teams? Moderate? Move-based? Everything has been sacrificed, especially with the advent of Heavy (Hyper) Offense, for brute force. Being able to set up in 1 turn is anything but creative; it's easy as hell to do. One would think that more work is required to produce such a game-changing move, but unfortunately GF doesn't believe so.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

While I don't think that Stealth Rock completely breaks the bank, these bullets demonstrate my view of it. A metagame that should be based on creativity and tactics is reduced quite simply to simpler power and more power. Where are my defensive teams? Moderate? Move-based? Everything has been sacrificed, especially with the advent of Heavy (Hyper) Offense, for brute force. Being able to set up in 1 turn is anything but creative; it's easy as hell to do. One would think that more work is required to produce such a game-changing move, but unfortunately GF doesn't believe so.

Saying that SR helps only offensive teams isn't true at all. Stall teams are based around using SR Spikes and Toxic Spikes in combination with forced switches and pseudo-hazing moves, and those are fairly effective in the hyper-offensive metagame of today. Also if you're going to complain about creativity, then SR is only a small thing in comparison to many other things. But the fact is you CAN be creative and still do well, you just have to work a bit harder, and when you do find that new creative set that works extremely well in the metagame, people take notice and next thing you know people are complaining about how your strategy is uncreative because EVERYBODY USES IT.

It's a vicious cycle.