Tiers Exist. Fact.

[Jono2]

If you have a game where the characters are not all clones of each other, you have tiers.  There are characters that are better than others, obviously.  There are characters that are faster than others.  that are stronger than others.  There are some characters that only differ in the size of their hitbox.  that comes in to play as well.  Weight, Size, Lag.  Everything is a contributing factor.

So now that we've established that not all characters are created equal, it's safe to say that you can make a list of which character is the best of all the characters.

Hence, you have a tier list.

Now, some characters have advantages over others higher on the tier list.  However, their place on the tier list is determined not only by their being better characters overall (as in can destroy everyone else except said character), but by the amount of use they get in tourney play.

Tier lists are made so that those who compete in tournaments get a guideline as to who generally trumps who at an equal skill level.


"Gimpyfish's existance means that tiers don't".

Wrong.

Gimpyfish is incredible.  However, that does not mean that if there was an equally matched person playing Fox that he would either win or lose.  Chances are, however, that Fox would win.

Gimpyfish makes up for Bowser's flaws, and turns them into advantages.  Gimpyfish is the incredible one, not Bowser.  Tiers still exist.



Evilflame101 says:

"... tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve."

[Dawei]

Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull poop.

[Depster]

Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull s***.

Like me.  And Jono, you said in your post that it's the player not the character...  That's just an oxi-moron toward saying that characters are better than different characters...

[thunderhero4]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

[Dawei]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

[Depster]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

That's why I'm so glad Brawl is Wi-fi, so I don't have to go to tourneys to own people with ma mad Yoshi skills.

[Triforce_Luigi]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

[Dawei]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

[Shamu]

Yah, there are tiers in a lot of games.

I just don't care about them in Melee because I don't play competitively.

[Jono2]

Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull s***.

Like me.  And Jono, you said in your post that it's the player not the character...  That's just an oxi-moron toward saying that characters are better than different characters...

right, but just because some players are better than others, don't mean that they can't defy it.

at the same time, just because they can defy the tier list, doesn't mean it isn't there.

characters that are unique to themselves means a tier list exists.

[Triforce_Luigi]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.

[Jono2]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.

Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.

I don't play competitively.  I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.

[Triforce_Luigi]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.

Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.

I don't play competitively.  I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.

Do you know that they didn't?

And yes, tiers exist. But they don't need to affect Smash players like that. People use Fox because he is top-tier, even if they hate Fox. They might love Pichu, but not use it because it's low-tier. The point of Smash is to be able to duke it out as your favorite character.

[Jono2]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.

Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.

I don't play competitively.  I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.

Do you know that they didn't?

And yes, tiers exist. But they don't need to affect Smash players like that. People use Fox because he is top-tier, even if they hate Fox. They might love Pichu, but not use it because it's low-tier. The point of Smash is to be able to duke it out as your favorite character.

which is what I do. :D

They didn't.  That's why they sealed up the Players Choice version of Metroid Prime to block things like early space jump.

and MP2.

and MP3.

[Dawei]

another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)

You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.

What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?

As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs.  You have to play with other competitive people to get better.

You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.

Casual players sterotype anyone who plays competitively in the fact that all we play is FD. The list of tournament legal (for the most part) stages can be found here.

Items can prove superiority, but for the most part they can get rid of it completely. There is a much higher chance that, if I were to go face Ken right now, if I used fox and items were on very high I could beat him.  Laser him when the match starts, and then vagina-y foot around Hyrule Temple searching for items. Items let anyone win. That defeats so much skill. Only the best should win, not some random scrub.