I had this discussion with a friend of mine a while back, and I was just wondering about it again, so I decided to ask it here: do you guys think we should have all HMs? What I mean is, when you get one of those CDs that lets you teach a pokemon a move, do you think we should be able to use it over and over again?
You see, I would like to be able to reuse my Earthquake or Thunderbolt as much as I want, but my friend argues that having a limited amount adds a bit more challenge to the game since it makes you think a bit more about using it wisely instead of letting you teach your useless beginner pokemon stronger moves just to make it through the gyms faster. What do you guys think?
The main purpose why HMs are reusable is that because they serve as crucial devices in advancing the plot and the game; ie. you need Surf to get to Cinnebar (RBY) and Cianwood (GSC). TMs, on the other hand, are extra stuff that act as boosters for your party. Unlike HMs, which are mostly (except Surf) astoundingly weak, many TMs like Earthquake are pretty darn strong. If one could teach it to the entire team before the E4, all the challenge is gone. Just spam Earthquake 50 times and Thunderbolt anything that flies.
They should really make HMs replaceable. I don't see why they need to be un-replaceable.
Personally, I think HMs should have a limit to their use, while TMs are fine as is. A little more resource management would make Pokemon a more interesting RPG in my thinking.
I just want every TM in the game to buy byeable. But only on specific(Random) days. And a limit to how many you can buy per day.
Some TMs will only be found at one or two places. So it gives players a fair shake at getting their desired TM, if they used the one that they found.
As for HMs, they should be limited. And to get more, you have to talk to the gym leader of the gym that you had to beat to use that HM.
Also, we need it so that you can replace an HM with another move.
No matter what, ALL TMs should be in stores somewhere. One Earthquake per game? Fuck that. And intercourse pickup, no one wants to try that hard to get it. I've had to resort to using an action replay to get more than one of those TMs, because otherwise I have unfair advantages in battles, especially online.
And HMs should be forgettable. I can understand why not though, because of a possibility in which you are on cinnabar island, etc, and you made all your pokemon with either fly or surf forget those moves. Oh, and you never got any of the fishing rods. You are now stranded. That's why they aren't forgettable without the Move Deleter, and it should stay, to prevent a horrible situation like that.
The reasoning behind HMs being permanent and not able to be replaced is... Well I'll give an example.
4 Year old Tim is playing, he does not have Fly. "I'm surfing, surfing, ooh, look, a fisher guy and a kid are facing each other on that island, let's battle. *battles* Epicwaterguy wants to learn hydro pump *removes surf* ALRIGHT! uh oh, mommy wants me to go to bed, *saves*."
The Next day
"OK Let's play!..... Hey, why can't I surf out of here..?"
In other words, it could intercourse you up.
But you have infinite HMs... if you made a pokemon forget it, you could just reteach it whenever you're in a situation like that. And if you don't have any pokemon with you that can learn that HM, then it wouldn't even matter whether or not they could forget it because they're not with you.
Quote from: Mewtwo on June 09, 2010, 01:33:22 PM
But you have infinite HMs... if you made a pokemon forget it, you could just reteach it whenever you're in a situation like that. And if you don't have any pokemon with you that can learn that HM, then it wouldn't even matter whether or not they could forget it because they're not with you.
Yeah but all the stupid 10 year olds and old people playing pokemon wouldn't figure that out.
Quote from: Mewtwo on June 09, 2010, 01:33:22 PM
But you have infinite HMs... if you made a pokemon forget it, you could just reteach it whenever you're in a situation like that. And if you don't have any pokemon with you that can learn that HM, then it wouldn't even matter whether or not they could forget it because they're not with you.
"Not being permanent" I meant "Not reusable"
Since you guys are discussing them not being able to be reused.
I think something like this should happen: No HMs, the HM moves still exist, but they're just TMs, some could still be used (like dig or teleport) as something like an HM, but not all. What you gotta do is go to someone, normally they'd give you an HM, but instead just teach your Poké to do something, it won't learn an attack, it will learn to just do it, like maybe teach it to swim. Or maybe it can teach a Poké to do what it already knows how to do, flap it's wings (Defog).
Another idea is Bluaki's idea, items replace HMs. Instead of needing surf, you get a boat (or my idea, a swim suit). Instead of Flash, you get a Flashlight (or my idea, a lantern [it lights more than just in front of you]). Maybe instead of Cut you get an Axe, instead of Rock Smash you get a Sledge hammer, etc.
I'm fine with the way it is, really. But I do want purchasable TMs. Oh, and how about an HM deleter item?
Quote from: Omega Bro on June 10, 2010, 01:32:15 PM
I'm fine with the way it is, really. But I do want purchasable TMs. Oh, and how about an HM deleter item?
That would make it pointless for them to be undeletable in the first place.
Quote from: JrDude φ on June 10, 2010, 06:16:56 PM
That would make it pointless for them to be undeletable in the first place.
By that logic, it's pointless to be able to buy TMs (forgot you could until now >_<)
I'm not saying to make it a key item or anything, just a semi-rare/expensive one use item. But now that I think about it, make HMs deletable, but give an extra warning dialog that you may not be able to get to certain places blah, blah, blah.
There are loads of ways that HMs could be handled without totally breaking the way the game works (is that bad though?)
I like JrDude's idea of replacing HMs with more of an ability feature. I don't want to teach my Staraptor Fly and Defog and would rather it had the abilities to do that instead of taking up moveslots. I can see how having HM Slaves for certain situations requires management on the player's part, but it's mostly just frustrating. *At the top of Mount Coronet* Stupid rock. Graveler, use Rock Smash! *Left Graveler in lieu of Staravia to clear retarded fog* Oh darnit. Fly in particular is annoying since it's the most useful field HM, yet not really worth having on a serious Pokemon. Thankfully, the main games retarded easy.
Also, I think that having one-time use TMs is great. However, do what other RPGs do and give players a way to obtain more. Pickup, that's fine and dandy for Earthquake in my opinion. Whether it's through chance, Battle Frontier, or stores, every TM should be reobtainable somehow. Personally, I would like to see TM synthesis, but that's probably just me.
Quote from: Omega Bro on June 10, 2010, 06:35:30 PM
By that logic, it's pointless to be able to buy TMs (forgot you could until now >_<)
Key word: Buy, it costs money to get TMs. You can buy infinite amount, but you need the money to do it, which you likely won't, nor would you need to.Wait what? Either read the crossed out or restate that, because it doesn't make sense.
If it would be pointless for HMs to be undeletable when having a HM deleter item, it would also be pointless to buy TMs.
Y-no.
Quote from: Rius on June 10, 2010, 06:40:32 PM
I like JrDude's idea of replacing HMs with more of an ability feature. I don't want to teach my Staraptor Fly and Defog and would rather it had the abilities to do that instead of taking up moveslots. I can see how having HM Slaves for certain situations requires management on the player's part, but it's mostly just frustrating. *At the top of Mount Coronet* Stupid rock. Graveler, use Rock Smash! *Left Graveler in lieu of Staravia to clear retarded fog* Oh darnit. Fly in particular is annoying since it's the most useful field HM, yet not really worth having on a serious Pokemon. Thankfully, the main games retarded easy.
Seriously. I mean, surfing is just swimming, and if you fished for a Pokémon, shouldn't it be able to, I don't know, swim? or are they all just sitting on the ocean floor and it's basically the Crane Game?
Dive is same logic there.
And Defog... Flap wings... well, I don't know why a Pokémon with wings wouldn't be able to do that in the first place.
And the Flash, Who the hell needs flash? Just get intercourse ing stick and have your fire/electric Pokémon light fire to it.
If they learned the ability to do it, then it would still make little sense with logic, but it would be easier and understandable. Instead of needing to learn surf, some dude could just let it do what it does, and maybe "teach it to carry others as it swims." And some other dude could "teach it to give you oxygen while it's underwater." They could add comedy to it if they wanted, like "Teach the bird to freak out when there's fog so it'll flap like crazy to be able to see"
It doesn't have to be those, I just felt like expanding my idea's explanation.
All they should do is make HM moves not permanent. It's pretty intercourse ing annoying.
Quote from: Zero on June 11, 2010, 12:26:24 PM
All they should do is make HM moves not permanent. It's pretty intercourse ing annoying.
yeah, but then you could delete surf from all your pokemon while surfing, and the game would be broken.
Quote from: So_So_Man on June 11, 2010, 12:56:03 PM
yeah, but then you could delete surf from all your pokemon while surfing, and the game would be broken.
lol
The game could prevent you from deleting the HM while its in use on the field. It's not that hard.
Quote from: Zero on June 11, 2010, 01:00:02 PM
lol
The game could prevent you from deleting the HM while its in use on the field. It's not that hard.
If you saw my example, it would still not work. Being on one of those little islands that have fisherman, bird keepers, etc. Level up, delete surf, "OSHI I'M STUCK"
Quote from: JrDude φ on June 11, 2010, 01:23:12 PM
If you saw my example, it would still not work. Being on one of those little islands that have fisherman, bird keepers, etc. Level up, delete surf, "OSHI I'M STUCK"
Once again, you have infinite surfs; you can just teach it back again. :|
Quote from: JrDude φ on June 11, 2010, 01:23:12 PM
If you saw my example, it would still not work. Being on one of those little islands that have fisherman, bird keepers, etc. Level up, delete surf, "OSHI I'M STUCK"
...and the thought of HM's still being infinite never occurred to you?
I thought all you guys knew how TM's and HM's worked. Maybe some of you are forgetting some things or somehow disregarding basic facts, but I'll list some things that I feel should be remembered:
- HM's are reuseable
- HM's can be forgotten with the help of a Move Deleter
- HM's can otherwise not be forgotten
I think that all HM's from previous games should stay as HM's in future games. Diving was so much fun and very cool in Hoenn; I was disappointed when it wasn't included in Sinnoh.
HM's being abilities is a good idea though. Pokémon are inherently able to do some things like fly, cut, and swim, so why do there have to be actual battle moves for them? It's impractical. Just about any Pokémon that knows Cut is already at a disadvantage in competitive battling.
Overall though, I think that TM's should only be single-use, but that all should be "re-attainable." All TM's for sale should be 10 times as expensive, but there should be about twice as much of a selection. As for the TM's obtained from Gym Leaders, beating them in a rematch should give the player another "copy" of the TM that was previously earned. That would also give the player more incentive to rematch Gym Leaders.
When I said that Zero/Mewtwo, I combined the idea of them being deletable and not-infinite.
Also, RX, people are complaining because sometimes a Pokémon will level up to get a new attack that they want them to have, but can't get due to HM, then the only way to get the move is to delete a move they like, and this could happen before the Move Deleter/Fly becomes available, so it's a nuisance. Though even with that it isn't that bad, just delete a move it learns while it's in the evo form, then take it to the Heart Scale guy (after you delete the HM with the move deleter)
There's one more way of deleting moves... If your Pokemon's nearing a level where it will learn a move you want, take it to the Daycare and put the HM move at the bottom of the list; in Gen IV at least, the HM is treated as a normal move and will be forgotten in lieu of the new move. Though, it's still a nuisance, yes.
Quote from: JrDude φ on June 11, 2010, 11:56:20 PM
When I said that Zero/Mewtwo, I combined the idea of them being deletable and not-infinite.
Also, RX, people are complaining because sometimes a Pokémon will level up to get a new attack that they want them to have, but can't get due to HM, then the only way to get the move is to delete a move they like, and this could happen before the Move Deleter/Fly becomes available, so it's a nuisance. Though even with that it isn't that bad, just delete a move it learns while it's in the evo form, then take it to the Heart Scale guy (after you delete the HM with the move deleter)
I'm not sure, but I believe that is limited. Because there is a limited amount of Heart Scales......... I think.
Heart Scales are limited without hacking, not to mention you have to make the trip there and what not.
You guys are over-complicating this.
And RX, thanks for pointing poop that WE ALREADY KNOW. We aren't disregarding how they work(at least I'm not), we're saying that the way they work has always been a nuisance and its time for change. Making them impermanent isn't something in the slightest that would be difficult to do, and even if you DID run into the problems that JrDude mentioned(which isn't likely seeing as they're intercourse ing infinite and you can just reteach it to your pokemon), it wouldn't be the first time a game forced you into a spot that you can't get out of without having to restart your last save.
Quote from: Barbaloot on June 12, 2010, 09:28:00 AM
I'm not sure, but I believe that is limited. Because there is a limited amount of Heart Scales......... I think.
No, heart scales are unlimited. 3rd Gen has luvdisc (which can have heart scales when caught), gen 4 pt1 has underground, and hgss have rock smash.
i like the hms & tms as they are. the only thing i want to change is to make hms forgetable and all tms available for purchase. its a pain in the ass having to interupt what I'm in the middle of and go to the move deleter.
Quote from: So_So_Man on June 12, 2010, 10:50:47 AM
No, heart scales are unlimited. 3rd Gen has luvdisc (which can have heart scales when caught), gen 4 pt1 has underground, and hgss have rock smash.
They're still a pain in the ass to get
Pokemon is serious business.
Quote from: Zero on June 12, 2010, 09:58:23 AM
Heart Scales are limited without hacking, not to mention you have to make the trip there and what not.
You guys are over-complicating this.
And RX, thanks for pointing poop that WE ALREADY KNOW. We aren't disregarding how they work(at least I'm not), we're saying that the way they work has always been a nuisance and its time for change. Making them impermanent isn't something in the slightest that would be difficult to do, and even if you DID run into the problems that JrDude mentioned(which isn't likely seeing as they're intercourse ing infinite and you can just reteach it to your pokemon), it wouldn't be the first time a game forced you into a spot that you can't get out of without having to restart your last save.
Sarcasm is the refuge of a shallow mind.
Sure, at least
you're not disregarding things, but what's with all of this "we" talk? Speak for yourself. You'll see that no one else made such a big deal out of it as you did, as I just happened to post some vital knowledge concerning the topic at hand. Of course it's commonly known, but is there a problem with my action? Please tell me if there is.
And personally, I've never had a problem with HM's that I can remember, so it doesn't really matter to me. The easiest way to solve this is to have two Pokémon--one for the HM and one for your ideal moveset. There's no rule that says that the player has to use their HM Pokémon for battling. Just deal with it; it's not much of a hassle at all.
I've only had one problem with HMs, wanting to learn a move but didn't want to delete the deletable moves. I then turned off my game without saving so I could delete the move before it leveled up.
Or hell maybe we can just have all water pokemon swim and all pokemon that can fly instead of having to know intercourse ing moves to get them to do it for you. Seriously that has never made any sense.
I just hate having to lug around an HM whore, because I refuse to plague my pokemon with terrible HM moves.
Quote from: Zero on June 13, 2010, 12:37:28 AM
I just hate having to lug around an HM whore, because I refuse to plague my pokemon with terrible HM moves.
I consider Cut, Rock Smash, and Rock Climb useless in power. Other HM moves are actually powerful (but, thinking again, Rock Smash lowers Defense).
Quote from: TheAuraWielder on June 13, 2010, 05:24:13 PM
I consider Cut, Rock Smash, and Rock Climb useless in power. Other HM moves are actually powerful (but, thinking again, Rock Smash lowers Defense).
Rock Climb's even stronger than Strength, and it may cause confusion... it's just not too accurate.
Quote from: Mewtwo on June 13, 2010, 07:19:38 PM
Rock Climb's even stronger than Strength, and it may cause confusion... it's just not too accurate.
Scratch what I said about Rock Climb. Put Strength in my "useless" list.
Okay, just had an idea the other day. Our whole thing is that HM's are semi-useless in battle and we can't delete them, right?
My idea for how they would work: you can use the move automatically outside of battle without taking a move slot as long as you still have a pokemon that would feasibly be able to use the move
So we would still need an HM whore of sorts, but you could teach it all the moves you wanted & it could still smash the occasional rock when you need it to.
And as for the few HMs that are useful in battle? Secondary feature of each HM, be able to teach TM versions of the moves.
Less complicated than my other idea, & still satisfies everyone I think.
Yeah, that's basically my idea except your version I don't really like.
Sad thing is, I'm almost positive they will forever keep HMs the way they are.
Odds are they will keep HMs in the game in order to constrict the flow of the game. After all, it wouldn't make much sense if you could just skip the S S Anne and Vermilion city after you beat Misty.