Pokemon X and Y confirmed

[Kayo]

That's kind of interesting considering Tentacool is a Gen I pokemon. In all seriousness I think people would have hated it more if they made a new Tentacool replacement in R/S.

But the amount of water was not the main reason people didn't like it, it was really more the transition between II and III... are you saying that wasn't a severe jump? Also, might I add that there were an equal amount of people complaining about D/P only having a single water route, so...

Personally I didn't mind the water in Hoenn one bit. In fact that was one of my favorite things about the region. I mean, you have a big square of water on the right side of the map but much of it is completely optional in all. When you narrow it down there's really only three or four water routes that the storyline takes you through (The one between Lilycove and Mossdeep, the long vertical one with the Seafloor Cavern, the one that Sootopolis sits in, and the one leading up to Ever Grande) which is pretty much what Gen I had (though I'll admit that there was an option to avoid most of the water if you bypassed Seafoam Islands by going to Cinnabar from Pallet Town). I myself liked the idea of an open ocean because it was something to explore, with a bunch of extra trainers and items on obscure out-of-the-way islands, you're always finding something new.

[Zero]

anyway here is my actual reply

Maybe if your criticism wasn't so weakly supported. You're arguing that the Pokemon designs of Gen III are uninspired when they're almost unarguably the most unique out of any generation. If you don't like them, that's probably because they're REALLY out-there at times, which is kind of the opposite of being "uninspired".

How is my criticism weakly supported? I'm not talking about my general distaste for Gen III here. I'm talking the lack of elec types, which is a very real problem. We're not on the same page anymore. At any rate, just because something is "really out there", that does not mean it is immediately "inspired". There are definitely some ones that are awesome, but there are a lot of duds that drag down the list, like I mentioned. The double battle gimmick pokemon are the main ones that drag down the list, Kayo. I either implied it earlier, or outright stated it. Either way, you can't deny that double battle Pokemon suck and look meh to boot(P+M are cute, but rehashed).

I'm not saying that you have to like them, but if you don't like Hoenn Pokemon, like them for something they are instead of something they're not.

This is what I was talking about man, you seem to be upset that I'd even dare to criticize Gen III. I'm not liking or disliking any Pokemon for something they're not. I'm not sure where you'd even get that man. If it makes you happy, again, its the double battle pokes that drag it down. Clamperl's evolved forms aren't exactly awesome Pokemon. Neither is Luvdisc. Wouldn't you agree?

The reason people hate Gen III is because, as I think you ironically said, people are resistant to change. Gens I and II were incredibly similar, there's really no debate there. That's why Gen II is seen as an "extension"of Gen I or, more officially, a sequel to the Gen I games. The Pokemon were similar in style and level of design, the regions were adjacent and connected, the graphics were pretty much the same besides the addition of color; everything that really keeps I and II linked together. Gen III came and kind of shattered everything. It WAS radically different from the first two; a pretty big step. The Pokemon designs, yeah, got really different. That's why a lot of people rejected them. It was a step they weren't willing to make. To put it simply, the reason people didn't like Gen III is because it wasn't like I and II.

Eh, its time to put a couple things to rest so you stop lumping me in with people resistant to change. One of my favorite Poison Pokemon is Swalot. He's probably in my top 30 favorite Pokemon too. Torkoal is my nigga and I think he needs an evolution or a buff of some kind. Seedot is adorable. Breloom is practically my favorite grass type. Absol is a guilty favorite of mine. I already mentioned how much I liked the Duskull family. Trapinch family is sweet. And the starters are pretty appealing with the exception of Combusken and Marshtomp. For every awesome Poke in gen III there seems to be a Shiftry or Luvdisc though. 

And stop saying I made excuses for GameFreak because I LITERALLY said the exact opposite at least two or three times. Please actually read my posts, thanks. That and your little "pompous facade" remark, and you say I'M grasping at straws for an argument.

You said the exact opposite of an excuse? I'm talking about your conjecture in regard to the reasons why Game Freak left out Fire in Sinnoh and Elec in Hoenn. Using conjecture as a base for a defense as to why someone did something is yes, what I would consider to be an "excuse".  As for the remark I made, its just an observation man. As you become more irritated and more involved in a discussion, you get increasingly hostile and arrogant. Chill out. We all like Pokemon here.

[Sirwaddy]

so the bird's kinda cool

[Zero]

That's kind of interesting considering Tentacool is a Gen I pokemon. In all seriousness I think people would have hated it more if they made a new Tentacool replacement in R/S.

Yeah but the point is that you run into it everywhere and its annoying. It's just a joke.

But the amount of water was not the main reason people didn't like it, it was really more the transition between II and III... are you saying that wasn't a severe jump? Also, might I add that there were an equal amount of people complaining about D/P only having a single water route, so...

Dude I don't know how old you are or how long you've been on the internet but Ruby and Sapphire is INFAMOUS for its water and trumpet based soundtrack. I was in 6th grade when it was released, and the most discussed topic for weeks was how much you had to surf in Ruby and Sapphire and how Tentacool was the new Zubat. This has continued on until this very day.

As for D/P, is that so? I'm not sure that that is something to complain about considering how SLOW you surf in that game. The surfing speed was one of the main complaints if I remember correctly.

Personally I didn't mind the water in Hoenn one bit. In fact that was one of my favorite things about the region. I mean, you have a big square of water on the right side of the map but much of it is completely optional in all. When you narrow it down there's really only three or four water routes that the storyline takes you through (The one between Lilycove and Mossdeep, the long vertical one with the Seafloor Cavern, the one that Sootopolis sits in, and the one leading up to Ever Grande) which is pretty much what Gen I had (though I'll admit that there was an option to avoid most of the water if you bypassed Seafoam Islands by going to Cinnabar from Pallet Town). I myself liked the idea of an open ocean because it was something to explore, with a bunch of extra trainers and items on obscure out-of-the-way islands, you're always finding something new.

Yeah I didn't mind the water as much as other people. Some variety in wild water pokemon would have made it better though.

[Custom]

Actually kayo i'm pretty sure this is the reason people hate Gen III

all of htis looks good

[Kayo]

anyway here is my actual reply


How is my criticism weakly supported? I'm not talking about my general distaste for Gen III here. I'm talking the lack of elec types, which is a very real problem. We're not on the same page anymore. At any rate, just because something is "really out there", that does not mean it is immediately "inspired". There are definitely some ones that are awesome, but there are a lot of duds that drag down the list, like I mentioned. The double battle gimmick pokemon are the main ones that drag down the list, Kayo. I either implied it earlier, or outright stated it. Either way, you can't deny that double battle Pokemon suck and look meh to boot(P+M are cute, but rehashed).

Your original argument was that the Pokemon of Gen III in general were "uninspired" which they're not. I'll keep saying this until it gets through your head, you don't HAVE to like them, but "uninspired" is a term that doesn't fit them. I'm not denying that Plusle and Minun hurt it, but come ON. Those are two intercourse ing Pokemon. Every generation has "duds" that "drag down the list," even your precious Gen I. The personal nostalgia that you may feel toward Gen I--which may make you think it's necessary to love each and every one of the original 151 Pokemon--doesn't change that fact.

This is what I was talking about man, you seem to be upset that I'd even dare to criticize Gen III. I'm not liking or disliking any Pokemon for something they're not. I'm not sure where you'd even get that man. If it makes you happy, again, its the double battle pokes that drag it down. Clamperl's evolved forms aren't exactly awesome Pokemon. Neither is Luvdisc. Wouldn't you agree?

See above. To add on the Clamperl thing, it was a gimmick to show off the trade-with-items feature they introduced and used pretty heavily in the previous gen, introducing a Pokemon that has a branched evolution based on what item it holds. Personally I like the concept behind Clamperl and its evolutions even though I'm not crazy about the designs themselves. The gimmicks are generally hit-and-miss; Gen III did a LOT of gimmicky stuff, which definitely made it unique, but no one loves them ALL. (I think Castform is my personal favorite). Actually, I'll make a little list of all the new things that were added in Gen III that can be seen as gimmicky--or could at the time, since some of them may or may not have been repeated since. Also, let me add that a LOT of these are based on abilities that were unique to single Pokemon at the time. One of Gen III's biggest introductions was abilities, and Game Freak didn't hesitate to get super creative with them. Not only did it do cute things like remove Koffing's Ground weakness, it proved that abilities can COMPLETELY change Pokemon.

[spoiler]
Wurmple and its seemingly random branched evolution
Slaking:  pokemon with ridiculous power but can only attack every other turn
Shedinja: An animated bug shell that comes to life after being discarded upon evolution. An incredibly flimsy Pokemon used mostly as a cute little gimmick to have fun with, it's INCREDIBLY unique since you play a completely different game when you use one. I personally love it.
Sableye: The first Pokemon with no weaknesses. Was gimmicky at the time, now we've had one in each gen since.
Plusle and Minun: They're stronger when used together in double battles
Volbeat and Illumise: The first and so far only example of true gender counterparts that are unrelated by evolution...if you don't count the Nidoran families whose breeding mechanics are insanely messed up which kind of makes it hard to do that.
Carvahna and Sharpedo: Doesn't seen like it from here, but I remember well the strange concept of a Pokemon hurting me every time I touched it. And since there were the ONLY Pokemon that did that until Gen V, it was definitely unique.
Wailord: It's not a gimmick, but I'm only including it because I like how the region with an expansive open ocean brought about the most absurdly enormous Pokemon to date.
Spinda: Look at one Spinda. Then at another. Then back at the first. Yeah.
Zangoose and Seviper: Not a real gimmick, but the whole "mortal enemy" thing and the version exclusiveness kind of made me think that, depending on which game you were playing, one species had successfully driven the other out of its habitat (which was only one location). It's a really interesting concept that they ruined in Black and White by making them both available in the same area regardless of game.
Feebas: The hardest Pokemon to locate. It was only available on six tiles of the entire river in one of the longest routes in Pokemon history.
Milotic: Separating it from Feebas because of its ridiculous evolution method. Kind of a literal "ugly duckling" story.
Castform: Yep.
Kecleon: Ayup.
Chimecho: Possibly the only time you'll ever play through an entire Pokemon game and not even know of the darn thing's existence. It couldn't function in battle, it was really only a trophy you got for spending an unnecessary amount of time in a place that you didn't even know had tall grass in it.
Clamperl: See above.
Luvdisc: While I wouldn't say it myself, many consider it a gimmick since it's more useless in battle than Chimecho, and its primary one and only function is to hunt for Heart Scales. And I think the concept of wild Pokemon holding items was introduced in Gen III, but I could be wrong.
[/spoiler]So yeah, there's a lot. I kind of feel it's necessary to look at gimmicks in the other generations too, but Gen III was definitely the heaviest on them.

Eh, its time to put a couple things to rest so you stop lumping me in with people resistant to change. One of my favorite Poison Pokemon is Swalot. He's probably in my top 30 favorite Pokemon too. Torkoal is my nigga and I think he needs an evolution or a buff of some kind. Seedot is adorable. Breloom is practically my favorite grass type. Absol is a guilty favorite of mine. I already mentioned how much I liked the Duskull family. Trapinch family is sweet. And the starters are pretty appealing with the exception of Combusken and Marshtomp. For every awesome Poke in gen III there seems to be a Shiftry or Luvdisc though. 

I already mentioned Luvdisc's one and only use. But you seem to like Gen III a lot for someone who hates Gen III.

You said the exact opposite of an excuse? I'm talking about your conjecture in regard to the reasons why Game Freak left out Fire in Sinnoh and Elec in Hoenn. Using conjecture as a base for a defense as to why someone did something is yes, what I would consider to be an "excuse".  As for the remark I made, its just an observation man. You become more irritated and more involved in a discussion, you get increasingly hostile and arrogant. Chill out. We all like Pokemon here.

No, I said two or three times that I'm not excusing what they did and then you went and claimed the exact intercourse ing opposite. Read. My. Posts.

[Kayo]

Post #2

Yeah but the point is that you run into it everywhere and its annoying. It's just a joke.

Which is different from Gen I because...? At least Gen III had the decency to add Wingull so you had that little bit of mystery when you got into a water battle because "Which one of the two is it this time?"

Dude I don't know how old you are or how long you've been on the internet but Ruby and Sapphire is INFAMOUS for its water and trumpet based soundtrack. I was in 6th grade when it was released, and the most discussed topic for weeks was how much you had to surf in Ruby and Sapphire and how Tentacool was the new Zubat. This has continued on until this very day.

Honestly both of those can be linked to the big change from I and II. Both of those used water as a one-time thing, which is really more like a badge-based roadblock in the same exact way as that obnoxious Cut tree to the east of Cerulean City. Gen III decided to actually incorporate water travel into the plot in some way by adding the whole Diving and Seafloor Cavern thing. People just didn't like it as anything more than a simple roadblock. And the soundtrack is most likely GameFreak going a little crazy with the GBA's vastly superior audio capabilities in comparison to the GameBoy and GBC. Not quite the same thing, but I'm honestly not sure that's really the fault of the Hoenn region or Ruby and Sapphire as much as it is GameFreak playing a little too much with the new system.

As for D/P, is that so? I'm not sure that that is something to complain about considering how SLOW you surf in that game. The surfing speed was one of the main complaints if I remember correctly.

I think it was the same as in Gen I and maybe Gen II. It was basically equal to land walking speed instead of running speed as it was in every game that had running EXCEPT for Diamond and Pearl (they fixed it in Platinum IIRC). If it was in fact the same in Gen II, then really it's just a matter of people being used to how fast it was in III. But yeah, because it was running speed both before and after D/P, I... honestly want to say that it was something that they either didn't catch or didn't care about too much in testing because of the lack of water routes. Which is kind of reverse order from what you said; I think it's more "Speed doesn't matter because of the lack of water" than "Lack of water doesn't matter because of the speed". At least, that's probably what the programmers were thinking.

But they did have the decency to change it in Platinum (again, IIRC) which is weird, especially considering there was no new water, so it could have very well been an error that the testers didn't catch/care about. Either that or they forgot that surfing WAS running speed in the past. The bottom line, really, is that there wasn't enough water for that to make a difference to the testers. It's annoying, but that's enough reason to put up with it. I highly doubt they would have released a game with enough water as Hoenn but the surfing speed of D/P.

Also, I know I'm defending GF, perhaps unfairly, but the point I'm trying to make is it isn't that big a deal.

Yeah I didn't mind the water as much as other people. Some variety in wild water pokemon would have made it better though.

Yeah, definitely, but I'd be careful with saying that because I'd rather not have GF making more new Water Pokemon. It's already the most abundant type. I'd say adding some more older Pokemon would help but there wasn't anything else really available by ocean surfing in I and II either. (Tentacool was 100%)

There was really nothing they could do, except for I guess making like, Wailmer appear by surfing.

[Zero]

Your asspain is going to take some time to properly digest. But I'll first start with stating that Gen I isn't my favorite, because you seem to think it is. Actually, V is, which is surprising when looking at the percentages I posted earlier. I just really like a lot of Gen V Pokemon that much more than a lot of pokemon that I grew up with. Volcarona in particular is in my top 10.

You keep telling me to read your posts, but it seems you aren't reading mine. Calm down, christ. It's not like this can't be a civil discussion. You're very argumentative, and I suppose in the end that this all comes down to subjectivity.

Your original argument was that the Pokemon of Gen III in general were "uninspired" which they're not. I'll keep saying this until it gets through your head, you don't HAVE to like them, but "uninspired" is a term that doesn't fit them. I'm not denying that Plusle and Minun hurt it, but come ON. Those are two intercourse ing Pokemon. Every generation has "duds" that "drag down the list," even your precious Gen I. The personal nostalgia that you may feel toward Gen I--which may make you think it's necessary to love each and every one of the original 151 Pokemon--doesn't change that fact.

Yeah. So? When I said that, I wasn't making an appeal. I wasn't formulating any concrete argument to any point or anything of the sort. I was stating my opinion. You took my opinion as a direct attack on your opinion and got offended. It is completely true that for the most part, I don't like how Generation III has MANY gimmick Pokemon. The entire list is dragged down by these Pokemon. You even admit it. As for P+M, its not just them. They aren't the only "double pokemon". Solrock, Lunatone, Volbeat, Ilumise, and that's just the definite ones. It's almost like Crawdaunt and Sharpedo were meant to be in a pair, and you can find this throughout the Hoenn Pokedex. Even so, I still have a lot of favorites from that Generation and like Gen III.

And are you really throwing around a strawman argument in that last bit? When did I ever make any sort of mention to love each and every one of the original 151? The only times I've mentioned Kanto were briefly in my last post, an allusion to them in the opening statement of this post, and when I calculated my percentages earlier in the thread(and Kanto didn't have 100% btw). Just stop bro. When you start throwing out the strawman arguments, you've done goofed up the foundation for everything else you try to say. Don't make assumptions bro. I think Gen III games are far more solid than the originals. Come at me.

See above. To add on the Clamperl thing, it was a gimmick to show off the trade-with-items feature they introduced and used pretty heavily in the previous gen, introducing a Pokemon that has a branched evolution based on what item it holds. Personally I like the concept behind Clamperl and its evolutions even though I'm not crazy about the designs themselves. The gimmicks are generally hit-and-miss; Gen III did a LOT of gimmicky stuff, which definitely made it unique, but no one loves them ALL. (I think Castform is my personal favorite). Actually, I'll make a little list of all the new things that were added in Gen III that can be seen as gimmicky--or could at the time, since some of them may or may not have been repeated since. Also, let me add that a LOT of these are based on abilities that were unique to single Pokemon at the time. One of Gen III's biggest introductions was abilities, and Game Freak didn't hesitate to get super creative with them. Not only did it do cute things like remove Koffing's Ground weakness, it proved that abilities can COMPLETELY change Pokemon.

Yeah, I agree. I like the concepts, its just the execution I have a problem with. I like Clamperl. Hate its evos. The gimmicks are VERY hit and miss. Just how I feel m8. No need to get offended especially seeing as we agree on this point. Wait why are we talking about abilities now? I like Abilities. It's the best thing Gen III brought to the table.

[spoiler]
Wurmple and its seemingly random branched evolution
Slaking:  pokemon with ridiculous power but can only attack every other turn
Shedinja: An animated bug shell that comes to life after being discarded upon evolution. An incredibly flimsy Pokemon used mostly as a cute little gimmick to have fun with, it's INCREDIBLY unique since you play a completely different game when you use one. I personally love it.
Sableye: The first Pokemon with no weaknesses. Was gimmicky at the time, now we've had one in each gen since.
Plusle and Minun: They're stronger when used together in double battles
Volbeat and Illumise: The first and so far only example of true gender counterparts that are unrelated by evolution...if you don't count the Nidoran families whose breeding mechanics are insanely messed up which kind of makes it hard to do that.
Carvahna and Sharpedo: Doesn't seen like it from here, but I remember well the strange concept of a Pokemon hurting me every time I touched it. And since there were the ONLY Pokemon that did that until Gen V, it was definitely unique.
Wailord: It's not a gimmick, but I'm only including it because I like how the region with an expansive open ocean brought about the most absurdly enormous Pokemon to date.
Spinda: Look at one Spinda. Then at another. Then back at the first. Yeah.
Zangoose and Seviper: Not a real gimmick, but the whole "mortal enemy" thing and the version exclusiveness kind of made me think that, depending on which game you were playing, one species had successfully driven the other out of its habitat (which was only one location). It's a really interesting concept that they ruined in Black and White by making them both available in the same area regardless of game.
Feebas: The hardest Pokemon to locate. It was only available on six tiles of the entire river in one of the longest routes in Pokemon history.
Milotic: Separating it from Feebas because of its ridiculous evolution method. Kind of a literal "ugly duckling" story.
Castform: Yep.
Kecleon: Ayup.
Chimecho: Possibly the only time you'll ever play through an entire Pokemon game and not even know of the darn thing's existence. It couldn't function in battle, it was really only a trophy you got for spending an unnecessary amount of time in a place that you didn't even know had tall grass in it.
Clamperl: See above.
Luvdisc: While I wouldn't say it myself, many consider it a gimmick since it's more useless in battle than Chimecho, and its primary one and only function is to hunt for Heart Scales. And I think the concept of wild Pokemon holding items was introduced in Gen III, but I could be wrong.
[/spoiler]So yeah, there's a lot. I kind of feel it's necessary to look at gimmicks in the other generations too, but Gen III was definitely the heaviest on them.

Ding ding Ding. They probably would have made some better pokemon had they not felt like implementing too many gimmicks. With that said, I love Chimecho.

I already mentioned Luvdisc's one and only use. But you seem to like Gen III a lot for someone who hates Gen III.
No, I said two or three times that I'm not excusing what they did and then you went and claimed the exact intercourse ing opposite. Read. My. Posts.

I never said I hated Gen III. You seem to think I do just because I'm not afraid to criticize it.

So, you make an excuse for GF, but it isn't an excuse just because you say it isn't? That's some crazy logic bro but if it makes you happy I'll roll with it. I don't really give a intercourse .

EDIT: lol errors in the last sentence.

[Zero]

Post #2
Which is different from Gen I because...? At least Gen III had the decency to add Wingull so you had that little bit of mystery when you got into a water battle because "Which one of the two is it this time?"

A 50/50 chance isn't what I'd call a mystery. But if that satisfies you, sure. And its different from Gen I because you barely had to surf in Gen I.

Honestly both of those can be linked to the big change from I and II. Both of those used water as a one-time thing, which is really more like a badge-based roadblock in the same exact way as that obnoxious Cut tree to the east of Cerulean City. Gen III decided to actually incorporate water travel into the plot in some way by adding the whole Diving and Seafloor Cavern thing. People just didn't like it as anything more than a simple roadblock. And the soundtrack is most likely GameFreak going a little crazy with the GBA's vastly superior audio capabilities in comparison to the GameBoy and GBC. Not quite the same thing, but I'm honestly not sure that's really the fault of the Hoenn region or Ruby and Sapphire as much as it is GameFreak playing a little too much with the new system.

All I'll say here is that the B2/W2 remixes for all the Hoenn themes are fantastic compared to their original counterparts and that yeah, the water was more relevant. I mean, yeah, its a tropical island. I get that. Everyone practically did. Context didn't make surfing more enjoyable for most people. Again, its just a joke. One I like to throw around a lot. Because, you know, FUN.

I think it was the same as in Gen I and maybe Gen II. It was basically equal to land walking speed instead of running speed as it was in every game that had running EXCEPT for Diamond and Pearl (they fixed it in Platinum IIRC). If it was in fact the same in Gen II, then really it's just a matter of people being used to how fast it was in III. But yeah, because it was running speed both before and after D/P, I... honestly want to say that it was something that they either didn't catch or didn't care about too much in testing because of the lack of water routes. Which is kind of reverse order from what you said; I think it's more "Speed doesn't matter because of the lack of water" than "Lack of water doesn't matter because of the speed". At least, that's probably what the programmers were thinking.

More conjecture at the end, but yeah, sure.

But they did have the decency to change it in Platinum (again, IIRC) which is weird, especially considering there was no new water, so it could have very well been an error that the testers didn't catch/care about. Either that or they forgot that surfing WAS running speed in the past. The bottom line, really, is that there wasn't enough water for that to make a difference to the testers. It's annoying, but that's enough reason to put up with it. I highly doubt they would have released a game with enough water as Hoenn but the surfing speed of D/P.

Yeah, Platinum is the better game. Agreed.

Also, I know I'm defending GF, perhaps unfairly, but the point I'm trying to make is it isn't that big a deal.
Yeah, definitely, but I'd be careful with saying that because I'd rather not have GF making more new Water Pokemon. It's already the most abundant type. I'd say adding some more older Pokemon would help but there wasn't anything else really available by ocean surfing in I and II either. (Tentacool was 100%)

You're right. It isn't a big deal. Which is why you shouldn't be upset about how I feel about Gen III. I do like it. But I feel the gimmicks way it down the overall appeal of the Pokemon. That isn't going to change no matter you much you try to argue with me over it.

Also for the love god 1000 times yes, we do not need many more water types. Gen V slowed down on the waters, hopefully the trend continues.

There was really nothing they could do, except for I guess making like, Wailmer appear by surfing.

Or they could have made Hoenn's water routes a true tropical cornucopia of water Pokemon from past gens and III alike. I'd have been cool with that.

[RazorFilledCandy]

so the bird's kinda cool

I like how the lizard looks with it's big floppy ears lol

plz help I really like it

[Kayo]

Your asspain is going to take some time to properly digest. But I'll first start with stating that Gen I isn't my favorite, because you seem to think it is. Actually, V is, which is surprising when looking at the percentages I posted earlier. I just really like a lot of Gen V Pokemon that much more than a lot of pokemon that I grew up with. Volcarona in particular is in my top 10.

I was waiting for you to deny it, and you never did, so I just assumed it was true and went with it. Whatever.

You keep telling me to read your posts, but it seems you aren't reading mine. Calm down, christ. It's not like this can't be a civil discussion. You're very argumentative, and I suppose in the end that this all comes down to subjectivity.

Uh, I'm telling you to read my posts because you're literally accusing me of saying the exact opposite of something I said multiple times.

Yeah. So? When I said that, I wasn't making an appeal. I wasn't formulating any concrete argument to any point or anything of the sort. I was stating my opinion. You took my opinion as a direct attack on your opinion and got offended. It is completely true that for the most part, I don't like how Generation III has MANY gimmick Pokemon. The entire list is dragged down by these Pokemon. You even admit it. As for P+M, its not just them. They aren't the only "double pokemon". Solrock, Lunatone, Volbeat, Ilumise, and that's just the definite ones. It's almost like Crawdaunt and Sharpedo were meant to be in a pair, and you can find this throughout the Hoenn Pokedex. Even so, I still have a lot of favorites from that Generation and like Gen III.

I'm not attacking your opinion, I have more of a problem with the basis of it. Like I've said what, four times? I don't care whether you like them or not. That's your opinion, I have no right to say it's right or wrong. But you definitely have the wrong reasoning though; Gen III pokemon are no less "inspired" than any others, in fact some of them have mythological/etc. inspirations behind them that some people take the time to thoroughly outline; if you've ever read any of these articles, you'll see what I mean. Some of them are actually pretty interesting. But what I'm bothered and yes, almost offended, by is your throwing around of the word "uninspired," implying that the folks who came up with Pokemon #252-386 just for the most part cranked them out sixty per hour without putting any thought into it. It's an unwarranted attack on the designers that I honestly don't feel they deserve. Gen IV too, even though it's a common fan-un-favorite, has inspiration behind the Pokemon it produced and there are a couple of gems in there. Even though I personally prefer the other four generations, I'm not going as far as to say that there was no inspiration behind them, because at that point we're leaving the realm of personal opinion and bashing the designers directly.

As for the double Pokemon, they're basically just version exclusives that have the same typing. It's happened in other generations, too, like with Growlithe and Vulpix and stuff like that. You only notice Lunatone and Solrock more because they have a unique type combination. Yeah, they're definitely more similar than some other version exclusives, but they have their differences.

And are you really throwing around a strawman argument in that last bit? When did I ever make any sort of mention to love each and every one of the original 151? The only times I've mentioned Kanto were briefly in my last post, an allusion to them in the opening statement of this post, and when I calculated my percentages earlier in the thread(and Kanto didn't have 100% btw). Just stop bro. When you start throwing out the strawman arguments, you've done goofed up the foundation for everything else you try to say. Don't make assumptions bro. I think Gen III games are far more solid than the originals. Come at me.

I'd also like to point out that that last bit was meant as more of a general statement, instead of a personal attack. I could have been more clear with that, but yeah it wasn't a reference to you personally.

Yeah, I agree. I like the concepts, its just the execution I have a problem with. I like Clamperl. Hate its evos. The gimmicks are VERY hit and miss. Just how I feel m8. No need to get offended especially seeing as we agree on this point. Wait why are we talking about abilities now? I like Abilities. It's the best thing Gen III brought to the table.

Abilities because it's what many gimmicks are based on, and it's probably WHY they had so many gimmicks in Gen III. Like, once they realized that they could use abilities to modify Pokemon in pretty much any way they wanted, and make them REALLY unique in the process, there was no stopping them. See: Truant, Wonder Guard, Color Change, etc. The gimmicks are hit-and-miss, but I can personally guarantee that every single one out there has its fans. Except for Luvdisc.

Ding ding Ding. They probably would have made some better pokemon had they not felt like implementing too many gimmicks. With that said, I love Chimecho.

I don't really think so. The gimmicks were what made Gen III unique, and that's what it had going for it. Thankfully they didn't keep the gimmick level so high in subsequent released (though I will have to make those lists) but they definitely give the Hoenn games their charm. I mean, Hoenn: where the wild Pokemon change their type every time you attack them. It's fun. What I do wish though, is that the gimmicks were made BETTER. For most of them, they're found early to mid-game, and their specific gimmicks don't handle evolution well (Spinda, Castform, etc.) so those poor Pokemon are doomed to a life of only being as powerful as a middle-stage Pokemon. If Castform was more viable in battle I'd use the intercourse  out of it, honestly. I love that thing.

I never said I hated Gen III. You seem to think I do just because I'm not afraid to criticize it.

So, you make an excuse for GF, but it isn't an excuse just because you say it isn't? That's some crazy logic bro but if it makes you happy I'll roll with it. I don't really give a intercourse .

EDIT: lol errors in the last sentence.

Okay, no.

Doesn't excuse it, but at least it's a reason.

It doesn't excuse it by any means, but it was likely their reasoning.

Is some part of this honestly not making sense to you? Because I'll gladly elaborate if you still, even after all this time, can't comprehend the idea of someone acknowledging a reason for doing something without necessarily accepting it as an excuse.

[Kayo]

A 50/50 chance isn't what I'd call a mystery. But if that satisfies you, sure. And its different from Gen I because you barely had to surf in Gen I.

I was making a joke, lol. I'm surprised you didn't catch that.

All I'll say here is that the B2/W2 remixes for all the Hoenn themes are fantastic compared to their original counterparts and that yeah, the water was more relevant. I mean, yeah, its a tropical island. I get that. Everyone practically did. Context didn't make surfing more enjoyable for most people. Again, its just a joke. One I like to throw around a lot. Because, you know, FUN.

The themes were good, it just took GF another generation or two to... not be so abrasive with the high-end brass notes.

Yeah, Platinum is the better game. Agreed.

I literally don't think anyone disagrees.

You're right. It isn't a big deal. Which is why you shouldn't be upset about how I feel about Gen III. I do like it. But I feel the gimmicks way it down the overall appeal of the Pokemon. That isn't going to change no matter you much you try to argue with me over it.

Okay, and I haven't really been trying to change your opinion.

Also for the love god 1000 times yes, we do not need many more water types. Gen V slowed down on the waters, hopefully the trend continues.

Let's really reuse some, please. Haven't seen much of Crawdaunt in a while. Wouldn't mind it making a nice, solid return. Especially because it's was virtually nonexistant in Gen III. If you didn't know to intercourse  around in the little puddles in Petalburg that they call ponds, you'll never find the darn thing once in the entire game. (Emerald fixed this by swapping out Sidney's Sharpedo with a Crawdaunt--you get enough of Sharpedo in that game with Team Aqua anyway)

Oh, and that's another thing. Gen III had a bunch of Pokemon that you could go the whole game without seeing. Your rival's starter's final form, for crying out loud. Corphish, Crawdaunt, Chimecho, whichever Clamperl evo you didn't get, to name a few. I'm sure I and II did too, but at least after III they fixed it by putting EVERY regional dex Pokemon in a trainer's party somewhere. In IV there was definitely all of them, because seeing them all was required for the national dex. Gen V is missing only Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz (if you're playing WW2), and the baby form of whichever late game bird isn't in your game. Completely off-topic and not relevant to anything at all, but I just felt like mentioning that.

Or they could have made Hoenn's water routes a true tropical cornucopia of water Pokemon from past gens and III alike. I'd have been cool with that.

Probably, but again the issue is what Pokemon are meant to be found by just surfing--a lot of them are more deep-sea (like Staryu) so you'd need to drop a line into the water to pull them up. Only thing I can really see being within range to ambush a trainer floating on the surface is Wingull and anything air-breathing like Wailmer. I guess Tentacool because jellyfish like float near the surface (and sting people) but that's whatever I don't even know.

[zephilicious]

oh my god every pokemon game sucks if you over analyze it

none of this poop even matters except pokemon designs and battle mechanics

[Zero]

So you don't see the contradictory nature in making a statement based entirely on conjecture in the defense of something, saying "Doesn't excuse it", but then further confirming your belief in your own conjecture by stating "...but at least its a reason" as if to defend it further?

To excuse something is to overlook something, and that is exactly what you were doing. It is as if you associate "excuses" with something completely bad. Excuses aren't always bad.

If you can look past that, sure, whatever bro, but that doesn't mean you aren't making excuses for Game Freak in Game Freak's stead.

As for having a problem with the basis for my opinion: Can you even tell me what the basis of my opinion is? Other than I just generally don't like most of the Pokemon, I mean. Rhetoric aside, how is disliking the repeated use of gimmicks and feeling that it weighed down the overall aesthetics of the Pokemon in Gen III not a legitimate basis for an opinion? I feel its a lot stronger than saying "MEH. I JUST DON'T LIKE THEM." Shit, its not even like I could stop at the gimmick part. A lot of Gen III pokemon just flat out SUCK not just for competitive play(which is something I can say for Gen I), but for friendlies and even in-game gameplay.

I also don't feel that all the gimmicks made Gen III unique. I feel it was the introduction of abilities and poop like contests/berry expansion that made Gen III more unique. Also the Vs. Seeker's first iteration was introduced(I don't count the phone in Gen II) so that too. There is a lot that is unique about Gen III but  ALL THE GIMMICKS isn't exactly something to laud about.

Anyway that's about as much effort as I'm willing to put into this. I hope we're on the same page now.

[Zero]

oh my god every pokemon game sucks if you over analyze it

none of this poop even matters except pokemon designs and battle mechanics

what about Pokemon snap