I believe Sakurai's biggest flaw with Brawl's roster was not the roster itself, instead the way he set it up.
We have 35 characters in our roster.
I don't think anybody really complained about the size, but more of the character choices and/or clones.
What really annoyed me (and possibly others) was the lack of newcomers as unlockables. A bunch of the unlockables were just veterans.
There definitely would have been a way to be more excited for the characters that we currently have in the roster.
Let's take a look at first the starting roster:
(http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/images/various25/various25_080130a-l.jpg)
For our starting roster we have:
12 Veterans
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Zelda/Shiek
Peach
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Bowser
Looking at all the starting veterans, there's no problem having each character on the starting roster and none of them have been unlockable before.
9 Newcomers
Diddy Kong
Pit
Meta Knight
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
King DeDeDe
Wario
Pikimin & Olimar
Lucas
All of these newcomers had high chances and/or were extremely wanted.
Now let's take a look at the final roster:
(http://ranobe.com/up/src/up254176.jpg)
Our unlockables include:
8 Veterans
Marth
Game & Watch
Luigi
Falco
Ganondorf
Ness
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
With the exception of Ness and Captain Falcon, each of these characters were unlockable in Melee as well.
6 Newcomers
Snake
Wolf
Lucario
Sonic
Toon Link (Technically?)
R.O.B.
We already knew about Snake & Sonic and Toon Link is pretty much a veteran leaving a lackluster
unlockable newcomer cast.
Let's take a closer look at all our characters.
Mario (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Donkey Kong (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Link (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Samus/Zero Suit Samus (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Kirby (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Fox (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Pikachu (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Zelda/Shiek (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Peach (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Yoshi (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Ice Climbers (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Bowser (Obvious Starter - No need for change)
Diddy Kong (One of the most wanted characters - Not a clone)
Pit (A highly wanted retro character - Not a clone)
Meta Knight (One of the most requested characters - Not a clone)
Pokemon Trainer (An unexpected yet (now) well-liked character - Extremely unique)
Ike (A highly requested character - Not a clone)
King DeDeDe (One of the newcomers with the highest chance - Not a clone)
Wario (Probably the most requested newcomer - Not a clone)
Pikimin & Olimar (A highly wanted character to represent a new franchise - Extremely unique)
Lucas (Thought to be the replacement of Ness - Clone and for some reason revealed first)
Marth (Was there really a need to place Marth as an unlockable and Ike as a starter?)
Game & Watch (I'm not surprised he's an unlockable, fine by me)
Luigi (Has always been an unlockable)
Falco (Would have been a fine candidate to unlock if decloned)
Ganondorf (Would have been a fine candidate to unlock if decloned)
Ness (Was it really necessary to have Lucas as a starter instead of Ness?)
Captain Falcon (I guess he was an unlockable for nostalgia)
Jigglypuff (She's always been an unlockable)
Snake (3rd party = unlockable)
Wolf (A cloned newcomer, still should be unlockable)
Lucario (With the removal of Mewtwo, a unique character, could have been a starter or unlockable)
Sonic (3rd party = unlockable)
Toon Link (Unnecessary unlockable)
R.O.B. (Brawl's WTF? Character - Instant/Obvious Unlockable)
I think there were some odd choices made when Sakurai and his team chose the Starters/Unlockables.
In my opinion, characters like Ike and Lucas being starters, while their counterparts Marth and Ness, were unlockables were odd choices.
I think I can propose a roster that would have been more accepted by the Smash community.
Starters (20)
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
Zelda/Shiek
Peach
Yoshi
Ice Climbers
Bowser
Marth (There was no need to place Ike as the starter instead of Marth)
Ness (There was no need to place Lucas as the starter instead of Ness)
Meta Knight
Wario
Diddy Kong
Pit
Toon Link (He's an unnecessary unlockable and other characters would be more fun to unlock)
Lucario (I think PT is more unique and would be a better candidate to strive to unlock)
Unlockables (15)
Game & Watch
Luigi
Falco
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Snake
Wolf
Sonic
R.O.B.
Pokemon Trainer (He's a unique character that would have been fun to unlock)
Ike (I still don't get why he was the starter)
King DeDeDe (I think putting all of Kirby's reps as starters is a bit too much)
Pikimin & Olimar (Another unique character that would have been fun to unlock)
Lucas (Would have been much more interested in him if he was unlokable)
As you can see, the roster is exactly the same with a few minor changes.
Marth, Ness, Toon Link, and Lucario were moved to starter status.
Pokemon Trainer, Ike, King DeDeDe, Pikmin & Olimar, and Lucas were changed to unlockables.
I believe if the Smash community had known about characters like Toon Link from the beginning
and had learned about characters like PT, DeDeDe, and P&O from a leak, we would be much more satisfied with the roster and wouldn't be as aggravated with clones.
These are just my two cents.
*claps* I agree completely.
I also think that we would have been more satisfied with the roster if we didn't already know all the newcomers from the dojo.
I really do agree. Its all about perspective, but I think the reasons for disappointment besides clones had other causes; one is that a lot of the secret characters were revealed on the dojo and shown extensively that it almost seemed like they were always there, and weren't special or new as they would be.
Take Pit for example. Only really after the final roster was announced and people started looking into new brawl videos with the earliest revealed newcomers did they start to feel better about the roster.
I'd much rather have preferred a roster set up like yours and I'm sure most everyone would feel better about it.
Quote from: TheKoopaBros. on February 03, 2008, 01:04:30 AM
I really do agree. Its all about perspective, but I think the reasons for disappointment besides clones had other causes; one is that a lot of the secret characters were revealed on the dojo and shown extensively that it almost seemed like they were always there, and weren't special or new as they would be.
Take Pit for example. Only really after the final roster was announced and people started looking into new brawl videos with the earliest revealed newcomers did they start to feel better about the roster.
I'd much rather have preferred a roster set up like yours and I'm sure most everyone would feel better about it.
*Points at above post*
Thief. :P
Quote from: iopy6 on February 03, 2008, 01:08:26 AM
Quote from: TheKoopaBros. on February 03, 2008, 01:04:30 AM
I really do agree. Its all about perspective, but I think the reasons for disappointment besides clones had other causes; one is that a lot of the secret characters were revealed on the dojo and shown extensively that it almost seemed like they were always there, and weren't special or new as they would be.
Take Pit for example. Only really after the final roster was announced and people started looking into new brawl videos with the earliest revealed newcomers did they start to feel better about the roster.
I'd much rather have preferred a roster set up like yours and I'm sure most everyone would feel better about it.
*Points at above post*
Thief. :P
I didn't exactly steal it, I just thought of the same thing as you and elaborated on it. :P
Quote from: iopy6 on February 03, 2008, 12:55:24 AM
*claps* I agree completely.
I also think that we would have been more satisfied with the roster if we didn't already know all the newcomers from the dojo.
Why thank you.
*Bows Down* :P
That's true.
If we didn't know, we would pop in the disc and have been totally surprised, but we do know unfortunately.
This is the perfect way to polish the roster! *bows to superior roster arranger*
I just wish Ray 01, Ridley, an AC, Bowser Jr., Krystal, or another third party had gotten in instead of ROB.
Quote from: Smash Bro 25 on February 03, 2008, 08:39:07 AM
This is the perfect way to polish the roster! *bows to superior roster arranger*
I just wish Ray 01, Ridley, an AC, Bowser Jr., Krystal, or another third party had gotten in instead of ROB.
Of course, I wish those 5 had gotten in plus a few more, but I was trying to make the best of the situation.
Glad you liked it. :)
uh, too much to read... brain hurts!
Actually the only thing the roster needs is Ridley and I would be completely fine with it.
I agree with the post. The main problem is that of the three "newcomers" that are unlocked, only one isn't a clone (ROB, who is greatly hated) and the other two are basically pallet swaps (Wolf of Fox with some variation, and Toon Link is essentially Young Link sent through a Cel Shading machine).
I would much rather unlock Pikmin and Olimar and Pokemon Trainer. The fun of Melee was that everyone was new besides the starters, now that we've known about most/all the characters in Brawl are basically the same from Melee...there isn't as much motivation to get them all...
Okay I'll just reply to everyone here.
Quote from: TheKoopaBros. on February 03, 2008, 01:04:30 AM
I really do agree. Its all about perspective, but I think the reasons for disappointment besides clones had other causes; one is that a lot of the secret characters were revealed on the dojo and shown extensively that it almost seemed like they were always there, and weren't special or new as they would be.
Take Pit for example. Only really after the final roster was announced and people started looking into new brawl videos with the earliest revealed newcomers did they start to feel better about the roster.
I'd much rather have preferred a roster set up like yours and I'm sure most everyone would feel better about it.
Thanks. :)
I also felt like that the secret characters felt like they were always there after all those updates.
Quote from: tibar7 on February 03, 2008, 08:53:55 AM
uh, too much to read... brain hurts!
Ahh...yes reading what a chore it is... :-\
Quote from: Ridley on February 03, 2008, 08:57:58 AM
Actually the only thing the roster needs is Ridley and I would be completely fine with it.
Well I wasn't changing the roster.
I was simply trying to make it a more appealing roster with what we had.
If I was adding the characters I had really wanted, you would have seen about 8 more. ;)
Quote from: Nayrman on February 03, 2008, 09:01:44 AM
I agree with the post. The main problem is that of the three "newcomers" that are unlocked, only one isn't a clone (ROB, who is greatly hated) and the other two are basically pallet swaps (Wolf of Fox with some variation, and Toon Link is essentially Young Link sent through a Cel Shading machine).
I would much rather unlock Pikmin and Olimar and Pokemon Trainer. The fun of Melee was that everyone was new besides the starters, now that we've known about most/all the characters in Brawl are basically the same from Melee...there isn't as much motivation to get them all...
Exactly, it just seems that most unlockables are either the veterans and/or clones of Melee or are just new clones.
Mehh...Oh well. :-\
i saw wolf fight on a video and he is not a clone. falco isn't a clone either. lucas is not a clone of ness. there really aren't any clones.
If this was oldsider, you should have been saged for this post.
Yeah, we just needed the roster to be revealed differently.
Quote from: tibar7 on February 03, 2008, 10:39:59 AM
i saw wolf fight on a video and he is not a clone. falco isn't a clone either. lucas is not a clone of ness. there really aren't any clones.
A "clone" is anyone that has essentially all the same special moves and FS as someone else. Therefore, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Toon Link, and Ganondorf are clones of Fox, Fox, Ness, Link, and Captain Falcon, respectively.
Contrary to popular belief, though, Lucario is NOT a Mewtwo clone, as he only has one special move that's even close to Mewtwo's, and while he also has a couple similar A moves, most of his A moves are new.
Quote from: Tuppyluver1 on February 03, 2008, 11:53:57 AM
Yeah, we just needed the roster to be revealed differently.
Definitely.
I don't think Sakurai realized how important the actual order of the roster is.
Of course, less clones and more unique/wanted characters would have made the roster better. :P
Quote from: Smash Bro 25 on February 04, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: tibar7 on February 03, 2008, 10:39:59 AM
i saw wolf fight on a video and he is not a clone. falco isn't a clone either. lucas is not a clone of ness. there really aren't any clones.
A "clone" is anyone that has essentially all the same special moves and FS as someone else. Therefore, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Toon Link, and Ganondorf are clones of Fox, Fox, Ness, Link, and Captain Falcon, respectively.
Contrary to popular belief, though, Lucario is NOT a Mewtwo clone, as he only has one special move that's even close to Mewtwo's, and while he also has a couple similar A moves, most of his A moves are new.
Wolf isn't a clone. He's unique. Having the same fs doesn't make him a clone. You need to see a video of him. Falco, Ness, and Toon Link would always have a similar moveset to their counterparts but they all have some of their moves changed. Falco's side smash is a balled fist not a kick. Ganondorf's up B is grabbing and punching not face rape. Lucas has PK freeze. Ness has PK flash. They aren't clones compared to Melee.
Quote from: tollhouse2006 on February 06, 2008, 04:45:42 AM
Quote from: Smash Bro 25 on February 04, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: tibar7 on February 03, 2008, 10:39:59 AM
i saw wolf fight on a video and he is not a clone. falco isn't a clone either. lucas is not a clone of ness. there really aren't any clones.
A "clone" is anyone that has essentially all the same special moves and FS as someone else. Therefore, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Toon Link, and Ganondorf are clones of Fox, Fox, Ness, Link, and Captain Falcon, respectively.
Contrary to popular belief, though, Lucario is NOT a Mewtwo clone, as he only has one special move that's even close to Mewtwo's, and while he also has a couple similar A moves, most of his A moves are new.
Wolf isn't a clone. He's unique. Having the same fs doesn't make him a clone. You need to see a video of him. Falco, Ness, and Toon Link would always have a similar moveset to their counterparts but they all have some of their moves changed. Falco's side smash is a balled fist not a kick. Ganondorf's up B is grabbing and punching not face rape. Lucas has PK freeze. Ness has PK flash. They aren't clones compared to Melee.
In other words the clones have been Luigified! And I'm perfectly fine with that. There are no clones in Brawl ^_^
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