So, we had this thread over at FCD where we would take one character every 3 or so days and just discuss that character's ups and downs...we didn't get too far into it before the merge, so I guess we can start from the beginning again. The rules were pretty much discuss, and if we moved on to another character, try to post only for the character who is being analyzed at the time. Here we go!
Awesome transition, for our first character is the beloved Mario. He's an all-around decent player, and I believe we have some pretty good Mario users (one at least) on the boards. His smashes are pretty good and his aerials aren't too shabby. The only thing is his fair, which is the big fist of fury type thing...it has been definitely powered down from Melee, but it's still a little useful, if not hard to land. An opponent can see it coming with a lot of time to spare before it actually hits.
Down-B, oh man. Yes, I know it's supposed to be used for an edge guard, but it just seems so hard to actually use effectively. Furthermore, it does no damage. This is pretty much the move that is never used.
His recovery is decent, although his cape doesn't seem to help him as much in Brawl as it did in Melee.
What do you think of Mario?
Pros
Good Aerials
Decent Smashes, KO'ing at reasonable percentages.
Edge Guard Possibilities are endless thanks to Down B
Projectile Blocker
Projectile with decent stun
Able to chain tilts
Able to chain airs
F-air is a spike
Aerials help with approach
Throws can be used as possible chain starters
D-air from the air has almost no knockback (This is a pro)
Fresh stock demon
Cons
Recovery is unreliable, gets stuck easily
Smashes are relatively short ranged
Down B is difficult to master
Cape has no lag, making it useless as a recovery
No Hurricane Recovery as with Luigi due to moveset change
Projectile is pretty slow, and spamming it is asking for a beatdown
Spike is much harder to land
Can be edgehogged more easily due to shoddy recovery move
I think that covers all the bases...
Trying to main Mario myself, I think hes fairly decent.
Just curious, how exactly do you use the FLUDD effectively???
...also, what's a "fresh stock demon"? =D
...I also use Mario from time to time
...I'm starting to look like Zies without the closing dots =D
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on July 01, 2008, 08:29:18 AM
Pros
Good Aerials
Decent Smashes, KO'ing at reasonable percentages.
Edge Guard Possibilities are endless thanks to Down B
Projectile Blocker
Projectile with decent stun
Able to chain tilts
Able to chain airs
F-air is a spike
Aerials help with approach
Throws can be used as possible chain starters
D-air from the air has almost no knockback (This is a pro)
Fresh stock demon
Cons
Recovery is unreliable, gets stuck easily
Smashes are relatively short ranged
Down B is difficult to master
Cape has no lag, making it useless as a recovery
No Hurricane Recovery as with Luigi due to moveset change
Projectile is pretty slow, and spamming it is asking for a beatdown
Spike is much harder to land
Can be edgehogged more easily due to shoddy recovery move
I think that covers all the bases...
Trying to main Mario myself, I think hes fairly decent.
You forgot he could walljump.
I used Mario's down B once to push a Lucas out of the way of his PK Thunder, causing him to fall helplessly to his death. It's a very situational move, but is very useful.
Quote from: Ugawa on July 01, 2008, 09:35:57 AM
Just curious, how exactly do you use the FLUDD effectively???
...also, what's a "fresh stock demon"? =D
...I also use Mario from time to time
...I'm starting to look like Zies without the closing dots =D
Fludd gimps many characters recoveries, it can also be used while falling off a stage to create the "Fludd Wall" and still allow you to recover. It can also help you regain control of a stock if you seem to be on the losing end of a confrontation, use it to get a little space and work your way back in.
Fresh stock demon meaning you can easily deal 50-60 damage right out of a KO without the opponent ever getting a chance to retaliate. Namely, U-tilt chains followed by a B-air/ U-air chains.
Quote from: Ridley on July 01, 2008, 09:54:52 AM
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on July 01, 2008, 08:29:18 AM
Pros
Good Aerials
Decent Smashes, KO'ing at reasonable percentages.
Edge Guard Possibilities are endless thanks to Down B
Projectile Blocker
Projectile with decent stun
Able to chain tilts
Able to chain airs
F-air is a spike
Aerials help with approach
Throws can be used as possible chain starters
D-air from the air has almost no knockback (This is a pro)
Fresh stock demon
Cons
Recovery is unreliable, gets stuck easily
Smashes are relatively short ranged
Down B is difficult to master
Cape has no lag, making it useless as a recovery
No Hurricane Recovery as with Luigi due to moveset change
Projectile is pretty slow, and spamming it is asking for a beatdown
Spike is much harder to land
Can be edgehogged more easily due to shoddy recovery move
I think that covers all the bases...
Trying to main Mario myself, I think hes fairly decent.
You forgot he could walljump.
Not too useful in battles, unless you count Wall Jump Edge mind games...
We won't wait 4 days until the next character until we get to the characters who haven't been done on FCD yet.
Next up is DK!
Big, powerful, and difficult to handle is how I'd put it. Difficult to handle in the way that using him is difficult. His recovery is pretty bad-he can't gain pretty much any vertical distance, even though he can travel reasonably far horizontally. His moves, such as his spike, are hard to land, and any good player should be able to stay clear of smashes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK does not seem all that good in Brawl.
What do you think of DK?
Quote from: Ugawa on July 02, 2008, 04:09:44 PM
We won't wait 4 days until the next character until we get to the characters who haven't been done on FCD yet.
Next up is DK!
Big, powerful, and difficult to handle is how I'd put it. Difficult to handle in the way that using him is difficult. His recovery is pretty bad-he can't gain pretty much any vertical distance, even though he can travel reasonably far horizontally. His moves, such as his spike, are hard to land, and any good player should be able to stay clear of smashes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK does not seem all that good in Brawl.
What do you think of DK?
Pros
B-air is godlike and chainable
Aerials are all fairly strong, and 2 of them are spikes
Smashes are insanely strong for their range and start up time
Side B has easy KO ability followed by a smash etc.
Super Punch when charged after a KO is a useful spacer or simply a surprise damage rackers
U-tilt and F-tilt are relatively fast and have great range
Down B has great range for a quick diversion or spacer
Cargo Throw, however ineffective it is
Combos fairly easily due to long range
D-smash seems to have high priority, but I might just be making things up here I haven't used him in a while
Cons
Recovery
Move Lag for F-air
Easy to projectile spam
Huge Target
Combo'ed Easily due to weight
Awkward movement
Recovery
Sort of slow
Cannot Edge Hog easily
RECOVERY
So, I've had a temporary hiatus on FCD, but I'm back, so let's get going again.
Link's next. He's got decent range attacks and a sword, so decent reach...His smashes aren't bad and neither are his specials, although his recovery is lacking in distance. He's just a powered down version of toon link pretty much, and we'll cover toon link later.
What do you think of Link?
He is not a powered down version of toon link. You do know allegretto is now going to kill you right?
Quote from: mario59 on July 11, 2008, 08:55:51 PM
He is not a powered down version of toon link. You do know allegretto is now going to kill you right?
You know, I just realized, if Allegretto is the best around here with Link (from what I hear), and Darkstar is the best I know with Toon Link (trust me, you have to face him to believe), then maybe those two should try setting up a match sometime... you know, for laughs and giggles? ;D
I am willing to bet they already have.
Plus Alegretto says I am pretty close in skill level to him with link.
Darkstar isn't the best TL, I can guarantee you. I've won all our TL dittos, and HTA has a better tl than mine.
Quote from: mario59 on July 11, 2008, 08:55:51 PM
He is not a powered down version of toon link. You do know allegretto is now going to kill you right?
Alright, why doesn't Allegretto tell me why Link is better than Toon Link? I don't really use either of them that much, so I'm not too familiar with their differences/strengths/weaknesses...I also know Darkstar is a pretty good TL...
Quote from: Chloroform? on July 01, 2008, 12:34:09 PM
I used Mario's down B once to push a Lucas out of the way of his PK Thunder, causing him to fall helplessly to his death. It's a very situational move, but is very useful.
it is helpfull but as they already said it is hard to master
Link
Pro-
Decently strong attacks for their speed
Bombs are powerful
Arrows are spammable
Standing Shield
D-air is a good killer, but the trained smasher is hard to hit
Long Grab Range
Tether Recovery
Sword
Cons-
Slow
Boomerang was horribly mangled
Recovery is a bit lacking
Bombs have small range
A lot of star up time for some attacks
Grab Lag
Easy to combo due to size and weight
Even with projectiles, easy to projectile spam on
Whirlwind 'Rang can cause more problems than solve
Overall, he was nerfed some... in my eyes
TL is eons better.
I do agree with the 'ol Axe on the TL Link scenario, but I'm always up to being proven wrong.
Okay, so next on the list is Samus....I think I've used this character twice. Maybe three times at most. I say zero suit is where it's at, but that's just me. So this time, we'll analyze both samus and zero suit. Okay:
Samus's projectiles are decent and you can kill with the big oversized shot...also the missiles are spammable, which is actually pretty annoying (maybe not as much as pikachu's, but still annoying). Her recovery has little range and I have not seen a useful way to use her bombs...but like I said I don't use her pretty much at all. Some of her smashes/aerials that include the fire thing can't really kill, but can do some damage...her tilt down attack pretty good though. Also, I'm not sure if she can still do the homing grab like she could in melee...
Zerosuit is very easy to combo with as long as you keep the opponent paralyzed, which isn't all that hard bcause she's so quick. She's also got a tether recovery, but her down special can also act as a third jump. Not quite as powerful, in my opinion, but definitely faster and better, once again in my opinion.
What do you guys think of samus/zero suit?
Zamus > Samus
She is quick and has limitless comboing capabilities.
But still, she's very light and at best a mediocre character.
Not much to say here.
I like Zero Suit much more than Samus...
But I don't use either of them much. I wouldn't say that either of them are very good characters.
Aight, next up is Kirby...now, we had a lively debate (semi) at FCD the first time this thread went around, where some people thought Kirby deserved high tier and was really good, but I thought otherwise.
For me, Kirby's hammer, his most powerful move, is hard to land. I think a good brawler will be able to dodge the hammer 90% of the time and then hit back with a strong move, rendering the usage of the hammer pretty useless. Who wants something that will hit 10% of the time, while the other 90% results in failure? The numbers are of course made up, but I don't see the hammer hitting much.
Plus, Kirby is light. He's easily tossed around. Enough said.
Kirby's suck thing is relatively good, but again, only a fool would fall for it. Also, down-B is disastrous if it misses. If it hits and is timed right, it can be used handily, but like I said, if it misses, it's a free grab or smash.
His recovery is good. He's got multiple jumps and a decent up-B that can be used for vertical distance as well as some pretty good damage. His smashes are okay, and I dunno much about his tilts. Aerials aren't horrible, but if someone uses an aerial against Kirby, his light weight doesn't help him much.
What do you think about Kirby?
...Guess not too many Kirby people here...
Okay, next is Fox. Because not too many people are posting on this thread, I'm not going to analyze Fox, and I won't post the next character unless someone responds to this. If nobody analyzes Fox, then this thread will be dead, in other words. I'll just say I rank Fox about 7/10, and if someone posts a response to this, then I'll post an analysis. Otherwise, see you guys elsewhere on the forums.
Fox is... meh.
He has a small amount of ground combo potential, but overall he lost his luster.
His recovery was buffed, thank god for that, but they screwed with his reflector and we all had to say goodbye to the waveshine.
All the things that made him good in Melee were taken out in Brawl, and we were left with a mediocre character...
6/10
Fox is alright. Not much to brag about any more. hes a fast lightweight. a relfector to block projectiles (and good for stalling in the air to avoid a smash attack) I like using Fox because of his moves that have consecutive hits. He has to resort to only 2 or 3 killing moves though, which is kinda a shame.
I agree, but I'd say that Fox is on the better side of the meh characters, although he's still meh. No wavedashing takes a lot out of his game.
His reflector is still decent with no lag startup, meaning if you play with items, he's pretty deadly because he can reflect pretty much everything. However, items aren't really all that popular...
His side smash is a decent move because of the horizontal distance that he gains when he uses it...aerials are okay, but not all that great.
His blaster is great to spam and forces the opponent to approach. Up-B is better, but still not all that good, and side-B is not too bad because it's surprising...just don't spam it and you should be okay.
Quote from: Ugawa on July 19, 2008, 08:02:38 PM
I agree, but I'd say that Fox is on the better side of the meh characters, although he's still meh. No wavedashing takes a lot out of his game.
His reflector is still decent with no lag startup, meaning if you play with items, he's pretty deadly because he can reflect pretty much everything. However, items aren't really all that popular...
His side smash is a decent move because of the horizontal distance that he gains when he uses it...aerials are okay, but not all that great.
His blaster is great to spam and forces the opponent to approach. Up-B is better, but still not all that good, and side-B is not too bad because it's surprising...just don't spam it and you should be okay.
Its actually a good thing that they changed his relfector now. He can gimp almost anyone by running off the stage and doing it. The Fsmash is OK, you need to get someone well over 100 to come close to hitting from center stage for a KO. his best killing move is the Usmash, which is so obvious when its coming, considering alot of fox's just rush towards you and spam it for the chance of hitting you. It doesn't help if they spam the Usmash either, because after every Usmash the knockback and damage is severely reduced. The only other move i can see that can kill is his Uair, which has short range and can be punished by most Dairs.
Oh boy... Fox's Down-Air is so good as a combo starter. From a dair into a neutral A combo can be a great damage racker, and his Down Smash comes out fast...
That's all I have to say... I play as Fox a lot, and I see the benefits in these a lot :P
Quote from: Timmy0591 on July 19, 2008, 10:04:40 PM
Quote from: Ugawa on July 19, 2008, 08:02:38 PM
I agree, but I'd say that Fox is on the better side of the meh characters, although he's still meh. No wavedashing takes a lot out of his game.
His reflector is still decent with no lag startup, meaning if you play with items, he's pretty deadly because he can reflect pretty much everything. However, items aren't really all that popular...
His side smash is a decent move because of the horizontal distance that he gains when he uses it...aerials are okay, but not all that great.
His blaster is great to spam and forces the opponent to approach. Up-B is better, but still not all that good, and side-B is not too bad because it's surprising...just don't spam it and you should be okay.
Its actually a good thing that they changed his relfector now. He can gimp almost anyone by running off the stage and doing it. The Fsmash is OK, you need to get someone well over 100 to come close to hitting from center stage for a KO. his best killing move is the Usmash, which is so obvious when its coming, considering alot of fox's just rush towards you and spam it for the chance of hitting you. It doesn't help if they spam the Usmash either, because after every Usmash the knockback and damage is severely reduced. The only other move i can see that can kill is his Uair, which has short range and can be punished by most Dairs.
In Melee U-air was god.
Ah well, and I agree with you on the reflector... mostly.
In Melee, he could gimp as well but now he's lost waveshine combos.
I don;t use him much though, not sure about what he can do...
Alright, next up is Pikachu!!!
Pika is one of the master spammers...sooo annoying, yet kind of difficult to approach. You can have a lot of fun spamming B's and then down-B's.
Pika's best move (in my opinion) is its down-B...you can grab, up-throw into down-B, or just down-B to take out any opponent in the air. If used correctly, it renders an opponents aerial game useless...maybe not short hops as much...
Pika's smashes are decent. I'm not entirely positive, but its down smash seems weaker than in Melee, but still pretty effective...and it makes cool sound effects =D
Pika's recovery is good too. It's really quick (hence quick attack) but can be punishable if an opponent guesses or predicts where it will end up...it's not too predictable, but definitely not unpredictable. It can also use side-B to recover.
What do you think of Pikachu?
Has a few multi hit attacks for decent damage, and it quick on his feet.
And as you said, his D-Special is extremely annoying and when spammed on the ledge it can be lethal.
However, an experienced smasher can anticipate these move and they pose no overly serious threat.
He's also super light, and even a great recovery can't stop a KO smash.
Pikachu has somewhat reclaimed his status as god tier like he was in 64. He has some good repeating attacks and his Down Smash got a big buff. His Thunder can be used as a wall against people trying to recover. Overall good character, but most users don't use more than his Dsmash and Thunder.
Alright, next up is Marth!
Marth is somewhere between decent and good in my eyes. His recovery is pretty much entirely vertical, which doesn't help in certain situations that seem to pop up every time I use him X_x. He can gain some horizontal with his side-B, but it's minimal in this game.
Speaking of his side-B, one of my favorite attacks because you can change it around so much. I won't be repetitive, as there is a thread on this already, but it's one of his better attacks.
Although his reach seems to be shorter than in Melee, having a sword still doesn't hurt, and he can combo in the air really well. Also, his side smash is pretty quick and can launch an opponent far if done right.
His up smash is another story. It's terribly hard to land a good hit, so I tend to stay away from it when I use Marth. His down smash is excellent. It's quick, powerful, and eventually covers his front and back. Also, his tilts are good for ground combos (as well as his side-special).
His counter is decent. It doesn't kill nearly as much as a Lucario counter, but a counter is always useful for a backup move. The skilled player should use this sparingly but well.
What do you think about Marth?
Marth is worse in Brawl than he was in Melee, thats a given. Hes in the same wagon with Fox. Honestly, I don't consider Marth to be that "skillful" to use. He is relatively fast, has good range (Practically if you go for his sweet spot at the tip of his sword your too far away to be hit) and has some good killing moves. Although most Marths just whore Fair Fair Fsmash, which is probably the worst combo i've ever seen in Brawl. Its very conditional depending on the % of the attackee.
Hes not terrible, but its just like playing a MK, only on a much lesser extent. Your basically playing on Auto-Pilot when you play them. It doesn't take alot of skill.
Is this still going on? I really want to see you get up to Rob and King dedede.
King DDD is Top tier, he even gives Snake trouble (Considering his Ftilt dominates his explosives and nades) and DDD can wack anyone around and keep them off the stage as long as they want with Fair or Bair, and sometimes Nair. Hes got the sweet chaingrab which is some what difficult to escape from. One of the strongest Fsmashes in the game (If you sweet spot). His Usmash and Dsmash cover his entire body which makes it an excelent defensive tool against Dodgerollers.
R.O.B is upper tier material. I don't really like R.O.B. So im not going to cover him.
Quote from: Timmy0591 on July 26, 2008, 08:40:53 PM
King DDD is Top tier, he even gives Snake trouble (Considering his Ftilt dominates his explosives and nades) and DDD can wack anyone around and keep them off the stage as long as they want with Fair or Bair, and sometimes Nair. Hes got the sweet chaingrab which is some what difficult to escape from. One of the strongest Fsmashes in the game (If you sweet spot). His Usmash and Dsmash cover his entire body which makes it an excelent defensive tool against Dodgerollers.
R.O.B is upper tier material. I don't really like R.O.B. So im not going to cover him.
I personally prefer his up strong attack to his up smash. It comes out faster and is almost as powerful. His back ariel is also the god ariel. The only draw back is that you have to face backwards to you opponent but that is nothing big to a good player.
You mean his Utilt? Yeah...THats a good killing move, so I don't use it until I can kill my opponent so the damage/knockback isn't reduced.
My favorite arial of DDD is his Fsmash, just because its cool to get a hammer to the face.
Quote from: Timmy0591 on July 26, 2008, 08:49:12 PM
You mean his Utilt? Yeah...THats a good killing move, so I don't use it until I can kill my opponent so the damage/knockback isn't reduced.
My favorite arial of DDD is his Fsmash, just because its cool to get a hammer to the face.
Well if you can manage to do a grab attack before you down throw for your chain you will be able to recharge your attacks really fast.
Haha, looks as though we have a lot of material for ROB, and myself, being a ROB user, have some good words to put in, but for now, we're up to Game and Watch because I've been a lazy butt and haven't been on FCD in a bit.
Game and Watch is weird to face. His moves have some startup lag because of the frame by frame animation, but he's actually pretty good. If we're talking tiers, I'd give him upper middle.
His down-B is really good if you actually have the chance to get the bucket full...useful against spammers...it's so good that if a Fox or Pika were spamming and got 2/3 of the bucket full, you can bet they wouldn't use another blaster/thunder thing until GW has been killed due to the monstrosity waiting inside its bucket. Spamming sausage things with B isn't that bad either, although it won't really force an opponent to approach. His side-B is random, so it can be good and bad, but I wouldn't overuse it. His recovery up-B is really good, though. First, he gains vertical distance, and then he can gain horizontal distance with the parachute...he can even attack out of it too.
Smashes are okay. Side smash is an awesome killing move, but it does have some startup lag...it's really powerful though. I don't know much about the other smashes because I don't use GW that much.
What do you think about Game and Watch?...and FCD-ers, be sure to tune into the next character, because that's where we left off before the merge...
Quote from: Ugawa on July 27, 2008, 11:11:04 AM
Haha, looks as though we have a lot of material for ROB, and myself, being a ROB user, have some good words to put in, but for now, we're up to Game and Watch because I've been a lazy butt and haven't been on FCD in a bit.
Game and Watch is weird to face. His moves have some startup lag because of the frame by frame animation, but he's actually pretty good. If we're talking tiers, I'd give him upper middle.
His down-B is really good if you actually have the chance to get the bucket full...useful against spammers...it's so good that if a Fox or Pika were spamming and got 2/3 of the bucket full, you can bet they wouldn't use another blaster/thunder thing until GW has been killed due to the monstrosity waiting inside its bucket. Spamming sausage things with B isn't that bad either, although it won't really force an opponent to approach. His side-B is random, so it can be good and bad, but I wouldn't overuse it. His recovery up-B is really good, though. First, he gains vertical distance, and then he can gain horizontal distance with the parachute...he can even attack out of it too.
Smashes are okay. Side smash is an awesome killing move, but it does have some startup lag...it's really powerful though. I don't know much about the other smashes because I don't use GW that much.
What do you think about Game and Watch?...and FCD-ers, be sure to tune into the next character, because that's where we left off before the merge...
I am a rob user so I personally would love to help out when you reach him.
Game and watch is top tier/upper tier (that is above high, but below top for tiers). 1 word; Turtle.
Turtle rapes ALL. That, and GW's down throw to down smash/tilt is all that you need to know about him to make him great. I hate using him though.
Quote from: Chloroform? on July 27, 2008, 12:07:18 PM
Turtle rapes ALL. That, and GW's down throw to down smash/tilt is all that you need to know about him to make him great. I hate using him though.
Roll dodge to the other side of him and capitilize rapes more.
You won't have enough time to get the inviniciblity frames to do that Ridley.
Quote from: Timmy0591 on July 28, 2008, 10:37:30 AM
You won't have enough time to get the inviniciblity frames to do that Ridley.
Trust me dude. Overswarm does that and it works.
Quote from: Ridley on July 27, 2008, 12:18:22 PM
Quote from: Chloroform? on July 27, 2008, 12:07:18 PM
Turtle rapes ALL. That, and GW's down throw to down smash/tilt is all that you need to know about him to make him great. I hate using him though.
Roll dodge to the other side of him and capitilize rapes more.
D-smash has a double sided hitbox.
Is it possible to do a shield-grab on G&W's turtle?
Quote from: PLAYAT on July 28, 2008, 03:24:11 PM
Is it possible to do a shield-grab on G&W's turtle?
No, because usually the G&W is just above your grab reach, and by the time you sheild and wait for him to be in grab range, the Turtle already hits you.
Quote from: Timmy0591 on July 28, 2008, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: PLAYAT on July 28, 2008, 03:24:11 PM
Is it possible to do a shield-grab on G&W's turtle?
No, because usually the G&W is just above your grab reach, and by the time you sheild and wait for him to be in grab range, the Turtle already hits you.
That is called a shield poke. It can poke through your shield.
That suck :-\
Well there has to be a way to avoid the turtle if you can't counter it
Anyway I want to see an analyze on Sonic, Zelda, MK, and Snake
Zelda's coming up soon =D
For now, we're up to Luigi. He's got that weird floaty thing going on...
His recovery is decent, you can use the torpedo to get horizontal distance and then his up-b for Vertical (and, if you're Gamree, you can do the fire sweet spot almost every time =D).
His aerials are decent, it seems that some of 'em have high priority, but I'm not positive.
His running attack with the girly fists of somewhat doom isn't all that good, and I don't think he's that good of a character, yet I cannot beat Gamree =P. His right and left smash also has startup lag.
What do you think about Luigi?
Eh, guess no one likes Luigi =P
Next is Diddy!!!! I don't know anything about him, but I'll try him out haha.
He has bananas, which are handy and probably one of the more used moves...he can throw them or make people slip on them if carefully placed, so there's no harm in tossing two around for a bit.
His smashes are pretty fast, so he can launch opponents decently.
Not sure about tilts
His up-B is really good...although it can only travel in a straight line, it does a lot of damage if it hits someone.
What do you think about diddy?