We all know OHKO's, such as Guillotine, Sheer Cold, and Fissure. They are interesting, to say the least, too.
Typically low accuracy, and low PP, it makes it difficult to get that OHKO, maybe not worth your attempt. However, factors like Articuno's Mind Reader can make them deadly, ending you in two turns.
So, do you think OHKO moves should be allowed? Or do you think they should be banned?
They should be allowed. Like you said, they have low PP and low accuracy. They almost never hit. I'd say that makes them fair.
Besides, most competitive battlers don't use them anyway.
Allowed, I mean, most pokémon who can learn 1HKOs can't learn Mind Reader (or a different move that makes the next move always hit), so it's unlikely to hit almost no matter what.
No, because, say Articuno is going up against
Sceptile. Now while Articuno uses Mind Reader, Sceptile
switches out for Garchomp, who OHKO's it with Rock Slide/Stone Edge.
They should not be banned.
There balanced due to the fact that they hardly ever hit.
Quote from: darkmario on December 14, 2008, 11:26:33 AM
They should not be banned.
There balanced due to the fact that they hardly ever hit.
Yes, and by the time you succesfully do the move, it has little pp and your opponent can damage you a great deal.
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 14, 2008, 01:46:44 PM
Quote from: darkmario on December 14, 2008, 11:26:33 AM
They should not be banned.
There balanced due to the fact that they hardly ever hit.
Yes, and by the time you succesfully do the move, it has little pp and your opponent can damage you a great deal.
That happend to me before.
The point though is that you can get lucky; wiping out half their team with ease. So, does that balance out?
Also, what about Sturdy?
Sturdy definitely plays a role. Forgot all about it.
OHKO moves, as you said, tend to have disgustingly low accuracy and typically only have 5 PP. Most people won't bother with them unless they have a move that can ensure a hit. However, in the time it takes to use a move like Mind Reader, the opponent can deal some heavy damage. Also, on the next turn, the opponent may still have a chance to attack if they are faster. They also leave you vulnerable when you miss (if you didn't use Mind Reader or Lock On), meaning that you just wasted a turn. And with the low PP, it's almost wasteful to use them without a guaranteed shot. Really, they're just too risky to use, despite the power. And it really doesnt' help to face someone with the Sturdy ability. Besides, you only get four different attacks per Pokémon. You don't want to waste one of your attack slots for a high-risk move like Sheer Cold, unless you have Lock On or Mind Reader. Even then, the OHKO attack and an attack to guarantee a hit will take up two attack slots, which really isn't all that desirable.
Since you're left with only two available attack slots, you'd have to choose very specific attacks in order to defend against enemies with super-effective types. And really, if a Pokémon has any more than two weaknesses, you're screwed. For example, let's assume that Articuno has Sheer Cold and Mind Reader. That leaves two more attacks. Probably, you'll have an Ice Type attack like Blizzard and a Flying attack, unless you use TMs. So when Articuno is faced with an Electric Type, a Fire Type, or a Rock Type, it's left with only Blizzard and a flying attack. While a Rock Type would be KO'd by Blizzard, both the Electric and Fire Types could wipe the floor with Articuno if they're high enough levels, since it would be left vulnerable whenever it used Mind Reader.
So, NO, they shouldn't be banned.
They should stay banned.
33% is more then enough =\
Garchomp's sand veil was one of the reasons for its banning (sure it pales in comparison to the fact that its guaranteed a kill lol), and that was only 20%. Moreso that only gave a chance of a miss. Do you really want a metagame based on luck, instead of actual skill? This was the reason Skymin was banned too, because it was almost guaranteed a hit with its gosh darned 60 (or was it 80)% -1 spD with Seed Flare, godly flinch rate, etc.
Basing more on this, would you agree to a move that had a 5% chance of hitting but wiped out the entire enemy team? That's roughly the same as 33% for one if I did the math right.
At triforce_luigi -
Again 30% isn't bad for a 1HKO move. Mind reader/Lock on are terrible, two turns of 30% chance is better then one turn of 100% chance. moreso taunt kills you. PP means nothing, this is competitive pokemon not in game. 8 PP is just fine for 1HKO.
Its not risky at all when you have a free turn to just kill something, you lose nothing if it misses anyway.
And again, two slots for a free kill? that's not exactly a bad price.
Uh, most pokemon have more then two weaknesses and do just fine. Look attyranitar. Ground fighting grass water etc are SE and it still has a great place in the top 5 most used. there's a magic thing called switching anyway, since pursuit dose poop to ttar lol. Articuno won't be using sheer cold and mind reader because by the time it gets set up SR will most likely be on the field and Articuno won't exactly like taking 50% on the switch. Sure roost but your still taking the hit when you switch and the hit when you roost. Flying attack is useless, and blizzard is terrible in non-snow conditions (like it would matter, since ttar would come and rain on your parade). Typing doesn't always mean victory., and electric types are unheard of in OU barring magnezone and electivire, neither of which you would switch in or keep articuno into. Fire types are also pretty darn rare, I think only heatran and infernape are even OU, and again, you wouldn't keep in articuno on either of those, or switch in (barring maybe a predicted scarftran earth power).
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
mack is that sarcasm lol?
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
I always thought that Pokemon with higher levels would have a slightly heightened chance of actually hitting.
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
What? Since when? Why was I never told this? ARE YOU CONFUSED CHILD?
Quote from: JrDude on December 31, 2008, 04:03:34 AM
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
What? Since when? Why was I never told this? ARE YOU CONFUSED CHILD?
OHKO Accuracy:
Less then level: 30+Difference.
Same level: 30.
More than level: 0.
Quote from: JNeedForSpeed2014 on December 31, 2008, 08:31:02 AM
Quote from: JrDude on December 31, 2008, 04:03:34 AM
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
What? Since when? Why was I never told this? ARE YOU CONFUSED CHILD?
OHKO Accuracy:
Less then level: 30+Difference.
Same level: 30.
More than level: 0.
Oh. Yeah, I never really got that whole concept.
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on December 31, 2008, 10:33:54 AM
Quote from: JNeedForSpeed2014 on December 31, 2008, 08:31:02 AM
Quote from: JrDude on December 31, 2008, 04:03:34 AM
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
What? Since when? Why was I never told this? ARE YOU CONFUSED CHILD?
OHKO Accuracy:
Less then level: 30+Difference.
Same level: 30.
More than level: 0.
Oh. Yeah, I never really got that whole concept.
oh and stick a "your" in front of level.
Quote from: Lotos on December 30, 2008, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on December 30, 2008, 02:04:34 AM
Finally levels, what the hell?
this is competitive pokemon, levels don't make any difference because the only things that aren't level 100 are gimmicks.
With OHKO's, I thought the Pokemon had to be of a higher level in order for them to work?
It does to an extent.
Formula is
Accuracy = ((U—T) + 30) / 100
U = Level of the user
T = Level of the target
So 100-100+30/100 makes..
30/100!
[link="http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/sheer_cold"]source[/link]
Its slightly less then 33% though, my bad on that.
no attacks that kill automatically if they hit should be allowed.
Quote from: tibar21 on January 03, 2009, 05:34:53 PM
no attacks that kill automatically if they hit should be allowed.
please stop posting crap if you know nothing about it.
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Quote from: darkmario on January 03, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Because having OHKO's turns Pokemon into more of a game of luck than real strategy.
Quote from: slasher76 on January 04, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: darkmario on January 03, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Because having OHKO's turns Pokemon into more of a game of luck than real strategy.
not if you force them to be used in such a way that they can only be used if they will hit.
also, let me remind you that most attacks in Pokemon have a high hit percentage, but are not guaranteed to hit.
Quote from: Jono2 on January 06, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
Quote from: slasher76 on January 04, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: darkmario on January 03, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Because having OHKO's turns Pokemon into more of a game of luck than real strategy.
not if you force them to be used in such a way that they can only be used if they will hit.
also, let me remind you that most attacks in Pokemon have a high hit percentage, but are not guaranteed to hit.
Explain the first line please? Are you implying Lock On/Mind reader, or...
And, uhh, what?
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/
Most of those are 100.
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on January 07, 2009, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on January 06, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
Quote from: slasher76 on January 04, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: darkmario on January 03, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Because having OHKO's turns Pokemon into more of a game of luck than real strategy.
not if you force them to be used in such a way that they can only be used if they will hit.
also, let me remind you that most attacks in Pokemon have a high hit percentage, but are not guaranteed to hit.
Explain the first line please? Are you implying Lock On/Mind reader, or...
And, uhh, what?
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/
Most of those are 100.
I'm implying that if the moves are to be allowed to be used, they must be preceeded by lock on/mind reader.
really? I haven't played a pokemon game since Yellow, and some of the moves didn't always hit (fire blast), and there were some that always hit (swift)
Quote from: Jono2 on January 07, 2009, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: Spiritombreeder on January 07, 2009, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on January 06, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
Quote from: slasher76 on January 04, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: darkmario on January 03, 2009, 11:41:15 PM
Besides why would they put them in the game if they are not meant to be used in tournaments?Thats why they balanced it off with low pp and low accuracy.
Because having OHKO's turns Pokemon into more of a game of luck than real strategy.
not if you force them to be used in such a way that they can only be used if they will hit.
also, let me remind you that most attacks in Pokemon have a high hit percentage, but are not guaranteed to hit.
Explain the first line please? Are you implying Lock On/Mind reader, or...
And, uhh, what?
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/
Most of those are 100.
I'm implying that if the moves are to be allowed to be used, they must be preceeded by lock on/mind reader.
really? I haven't played a pokemon game since Yellow, and some of the moves didn't always hit (fire blast), and there were some that always hit (swift)
Didn't swift use to ALWAYS hit? Like even when the opponent flies? But now it isn't.
Also, moves like Fire Blast have a lower chance in hitting because they are very strong, and moves that say "100" don't always hit either, it's just a low chance in missing.