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Hey Nsiders! Welcome to LET'S ARGUE! In this thread, we will be having full fledged arguments and debates that encompass several aspects of Pokemon. We will (hopefully) be having many hosts over this topic's existence, so if you have an idea for an argument or you just want to host one of these, feel free to shoot me a PM. However, in order for a thread like this to be successful, certain rules must be followed. Please don't screw this up.

Rules

1. Treat this as the Serious Discussion of the Pokemon Board. Do not post useless or stupid comments that don't contribute to the current discussion. Make sure your comments are correct or are at least backed up. Don't spout conjecture that no one can prove. Good ways to back up your argument are to cite your source, provide damage calculation, or something else on that line: I don't care what it is as long as it helps you prove your point. Opinions are fine too, just back them up!

2. Please know what you're talking about. If you're not a competitive battler and the discussion is currently about competitive battling, don't say useless things like, "I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun" because while we respect your opinion, you are not contributing to the conversation. Also, please don't make up facts to try and sound intelligent. If you don't know something about a topic, then look it up or ask about it, but don't make stuff up for the hell of it.

3. Try to stay on topic during discussions. If you have another idea for a topic, then go ahead and post it, but don't start a completely new discussion in the middle of the current one as that confuses everyone and makes the thread hard to follow.

4. Be tasteful and serious in your comments. This is not the thread to joke around on. Try not to attack other members when you are arguing. Fight the argument, not the arguer. Again, if you have something to say, back it up with a coherent and well-informed argument.

And now for the topic!

Topic

February 20, 2010

Quote
Category: Everything
Host: Wedge

To what extend should anything that alters the game in a way that the game designers did not intend be banished from any aspect of Pokemon? This includes things such as cheating, glitch abusing, hacking, special rules, and other such activities.

FINISHED
February 16, 2010

Quote
Category: Competitive Battling
Host: Wedge

How did the addition of Stealth Rock affect competitive battling and was its inclusion beneficial or detrimental to the metagame as a whole?

Have at it!

it was a cool concept, but overcomplicated the game just a wee bit. Though the use of rock-resists instead of opting for a spinner seemed to be the best choice over most. Then again, is less complicated a bad thing?

I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun.

Speaking from a third gen perspective, Stealth Rock was more of an experiment than anything else. Spikes was simple and clear; one layer does damage, two layers do more damage, three layers do max damage. Now you have this Stealth Rock and these type advantages and disadvantage and what comes out of the crapper is a max of 50% shredded on a switch-in. It's quite ridiculous to have a one-turn move slice off a fourth or half of an opponent's health. In 3rd generation, you could do 25% damage, but you had to work your ass off for it. Stealth Rock, on the other hand, is a one-turn shot that seriously cripples whoever's on the other end (how many teams carry all SR resistant Pokes?). Spikes also doesn't hit everything; Stealth Rock does. Thus, you have a wider range of OHKOs, a statistical anomaly and imbalance, brought about by something as simple as one move. In the entire history of competitive battling there has not been a more game defining move than this; it hits everything for damage, no matter how insignificant, and tosses a somewhat balanced metagame into a grossly unbalanced one.

Quote from: Mikoyan on February 16, 2010, 09:45:57 PM
I HATE competitive battling because it makes Pokemon not fun.

Speaking from a third gen perspective, Stealth Rock was more of an experiment than anything else. Spikes was simple and clear; one layer does damage, two layers do more damage, three layers do max damage. Now you have this Stealth Rock and these type advantages and disadvantage and what comes out of the crapper is a max of 50% shredded on a switch-in. It's quite ridiculous to have a one-turn move slice off a fourth or half of an opponent's health. In 3rd generation, you could do 25% damage, but you had to work your ass off for it. Stealth Rock, on the other hand, is a one-turn shot that seriously cripples whoever's on the other end (how many teams carry all SR resistant Pokes?). Spikes also doesn't hit everything; Stealth Rock does. Thus, you have a wider range of OHKOs, a statistical anomaly and imbalance, brought about by something as simple as one move. In the entire history of competitive battling there has not been a more game defining move than this; it hits everything for damage, no matter how insignificant, and tosses a somewhat balanced metagame into a grossly unbalanced one.

That actually sums it up pretty well.

Sure as hell got rid of most flying types in the metagame, and gave rise to the NEW INDUSTRIAL AGE... and by that I mean there are a whole intercourse ing lot of steel types.

Which is why I don't understand why stealth rock isn't banned. If you're going to keep me from freezing/putting to sleep more than one pokemon(which is stupid because ice beam's chance to freeze is like 10 percent), keep me from using double team, minimize, sand attack, horn drill, etc, then why let a move like Stealth Rock through all the faggotry? Why not just play under "Anything goes" rules where all our teams consist of:

GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP

Quote from: Zero on February 17, 2010, 03:13:36 PM
Which is why I don't understand why stealth rock isn't banned. If you're going to keep me from freezing/putting to sleep more than one pokemon(which is stupid because ice beam's chance to freeze is like 10 percent), keep me from using double team, minimize, sand attack, horn drill, etc, then why let a move like Stealth Rock through all the faggotry? Why not just play under "Anything goes" rules where all our teams consist of:

GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP

Don't you mean
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
GARCHOMP
Cloister (sp?)

Stealth Rock is why I gave up on competitive battling. Spikes was enough, and it was perfectly fine. I'm glad you brought this up. I absolutely DESPISE how certain pokemon, namely Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have been dropped straight to NU because of the move. I'm tired of building teams around it. "This pokemon is great, it's a great counter, and it has more than decent stats in both offense and defense, BUT NO. ITS WEAK TO STEALTH ROCK SO I CANT USE IT. And then I found out I had to breed for Rapid Spin. Seriously? Rapid Spin? It has no point whatsoever without entry hazards, why do I suddenly need this on every team? How about, we put this as a new battling clause. Stealth Rock Clause. What, you can ninny and whine if I manage to Hypnosis two of your pokemon to sleep, but I can take this 25% HP loss on 2 of my pokemon, and 12.5% on 2 more, and 50% on my Moltres? No! Whoever invented Sleep Clause because their pokemon weren't good enough to stand up against a fast hypnotizing Crobat, good for you. You forgot this. Stealth Rock changes the game completely. Take it out, and we also say goodbye to wasting a perfectly good moveslot to put Rapid Spin on my Starmie, rather than Psychic. Also, I can finally use Articuno. Good. We go back to the battling that I like.

Why can't this have a clause? I'm sure I'm not the only person mad about this move.

Seriously, GameFreak. You couldn't leave Spikes alone. If people want to knock 25% HP off half my pokemon, they sure as hell better work for it. Three turns. good. Now, one attack can completely cripple more than half my pokemon, and also this: type favoritism? Now the Steel and Fighting types get a huge advantage over the poor Fire-types, who get crippled when all they wanna do is battle. It makes everything grossly unbalanced, as Mikoyan said. I've had enough.

Thoughts.

Quote from: K on February 17, 2010, 05:53:49 PM
Stealth Rock is why I gave up on competitive battling. Spikes was enough, and it was perfectly fine. I'm glad you brought this up. I absolutely DESPISE how certain pokemon, namely Charizard, Articuno and Moltres have been dropped straight to NU because of the move. I'm tired of building teams around it. "This pokemon is great, it's a great counter, and it has more than decent stats in both offense and defense, BUT NO. ITS WEAK TO STEALTH ROCK SO I CANT USE IT. And then I found out I had to breed for Rapid Spin. Seriously? Rapid Spin? It has no point whatsoever without entry hazards, why do I suddenly need this on every team? How about, we put this as a new battling clause. Stealth Rock Clause. What, you can ninny and whine if I manage to Hypnosis two of your pokemon to sleep, but I can take this 25% HP loss on 2 of my pokemon, and 12.5% on 2 more, and 50% on my Moltres? No! Whoever invented Sleep Clause because their pokemon weren't good enough to stand up against a fast hypnotizing Crobat, good for you. You forgot this. Stealth Rock changes the game completely. Take it out, and we also say goodbye to wasting a perfectly good moveslot to put Rapid Spin on my Starmie, rather than Psychic. Also, I can finally use Articuno. Good. We go back to the battling that I like.

Why can't this have a clause? I'm sure I'm not the only person mad about this move.

Seriously, GameFreak. You couldn't leave Spikes alone. If people want to knock 25% HP off half my pokemon, they sure as hell better work for it. Three turns. good. Now, one attack can completely cripple more than half my pokemon, and also this: type favoritism? Now the Steel and Fighting types get a huge advantage over the poor Fire-types, who get crippled when all they wanna do is battle. It makes everything grossly unbalanced, as Mikoyan said. I've had enough.

Thoughts.

First of all Articuno is an awful pokemon anyway. Charizard and Moltres aren't much better. And stats aren't everything.

That being said, stealth rock didn't move any useful pokemon out of being useful. Most of those pokemon were frail/straightforward attackers anyway, so the HP loss didn't help them. The most it did was get rid of Focus Sash abuse, which would be a lot more annoying than stealth rocks.

Sleep clause and Freeze clause are different though. Those two statuses render your pokemon useless for an amount of time based on luck. The point of the clauses are to maximize the use of skill and minimize the role of luck while still keeping as many moves in as possible. And of course one could ask "BUT CONFUSION IS STILL LEGAL AND IT'S BASED ON LUCK!!!!" which is true, but you can just switch out and it's gone. So it's not a huge problem, and even if you didn't switch out then you still at least stand a chance. Were Sleep clause not there it would effectively overcentralize the metagame around sleep, and it would be all about who put who to sleep first. Which would be a god awful metagame.

The difference between this and stealth rocks is that, while it is a major game changer, it doesn't break the game. There are plenty of pokemon resistant to it, and it has it's checks and balances. It's not "unfair" because everyone can use it, it always works, it doesn't make anything unable to be played (if you play it right... except shedinja, but shedinja sucks anyway). Besides, most flying-types got a roost as a recovery move that heals *GASP* 50%!

So it's not broken.

I don't mind Stealth Rock myself. It's an absolutely nasty move, but when you have something like that, it just changes the meta game. Using a Smash Bros. comparison (where Meta Knight is broken), you're going to have all the players exploiting everything they know about him to try and take the character out. If anything, using a character (or, in this case, move) that is overabused is ultimately going to be cause for the game to shift. As was said, I can't really name many flying types that were that grand in OU as is, so all it does is just make those people think twice anyways.

I also don't think it is overpowered. It does up to 50%. Well guess what, if that flying type comes out and gets hit with stone edge, it'd likely be thankful for that 50%. I do admit that the fact it needs out only once is a bit concerning, but there are still the OHKO moves.

Quote from: Drezford_the_Rebell on February 17, 2010, 09:13:40 PM
First of all Articuno is an awful pokemon anyway. Charizard and Moltres aren't much better. And stats aren't everything.

That being said, stealth rock didn't move any useful pokemon out of being useful. Most of those pokemon were frail/straightforward attackers anyway, so the HP loss didn't help them. The most it did was get rid of Focus Sash abuse, which would be a lot more annoying than stealth rocks.

So, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

QuoteSleep clause and Freeze clause are different though. Those two statuses render your pokemon useless for an amount of time based on luck. The point of the clauses are to maximize the use of skill and minimize the role of luck while still keeping as many moves in as possible. And of course one could ask "BUT CONFUSION IS STILL LEGAL AND IT'S BASED ON LUCK!!!!" which is true, but you can just switch out and it's gone. So it's not a huge problem, and even if you didn't switch out then you still at least stand a chance. Were Sleep clause not there it would effectively overcentralize the metagame around sleep, and it would be all about who put who to sleep first. Which would be a god awful metagame.

Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair. :|

QuoteThe difference between this and stealth rocks is that, while it is a major game changer, it doesn't break the game. There are plenty of pokemon resistant to it, and it has it's checks and balances. It's not "unfair" because everyone can use it, it always works, it doesn't make anything unable to be played (if you play it right... except shedinja, but shedinja sucks anyway). Besides, most flying-types got a roost as a recovery move that heals *GASP* 50%!

Obviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move. :|

QuoteSo it's not broken.

:|

Quote from: mackormoses on February 18, 2010, 12:37:15 PM
I don't mind Stealth Rock myself. It's an absolutely nasty move, but when you have something like that, it just changes the meta game. Using a Smash Bros. comparison (where Meta Knight is broken), you're going to have all the players exploiting everything they know about him to try and take the character out. If anything, using a character (or, in this case, move) that is overabused is ultimately going to be cause for the game to shift. As was said, I can't really name many flying types that were that grand in OU as is, so all it does is just make those people think twice anyways.

So with what your saying, it just backs up the point that there should be a clause for it. It's extremely overused.

QuoteI also don't think it is overpowered. It does up to 50%. Well guess what, if that flying type comes out and gets hit with stone edge, it'd likely be thankful for that 50%. I do admit that the fact it needs out only once is a bit concerning, but there are still the OHKO moves.

Be thankful for the 50%, so a single Ice Shard will take the poor bird out in a single hit, when it wouldn't if it had full HP. Also, there's a clause for OHKO moves. They're usually banned from battling, so that point is next to useless in this situation. Still, Stealth Rock should take 2-3 turns for maximum setup seeing as it does so much.

My point was for type advantage moves, like stone edge, that can do OHKO when matched correctly. Not fissure. Try again K.

K, please don't make a mockery of this thread. Stop using words like "HURR", at the very least in this thread, because they're tasteless, don't improve your argument, add nothing to the conversation, and make you look like an idiot. That being said, ":|" is not an adequate counterargument either. If you're going to say something, back it up. Also, don't reword what people are saying because that often changes the meaning and you'll end up arguing with yourself.

QuoteSo, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

No, that's actually not what he's saying. While I partially disagree with his statement, he does not say, nor does he intend to say, "Spikes and Stealth Rock do the same thing".

Stealth Rock and Spikes are two similar moves that accomplish different things. Stealth Rock is used on almost every team for several reasons:

1. It takes one turn to set up, allowing offensive teams to make good use of it
2. It is accessible to an enormous amount of Pokemon, so placing it on a team isn't too difficult
3. It hits every single Pokemon in the game, allowing it to stop your opponent from freely switching around your moves, and as Drez pointed out, it stops Focus Sash abuse
4. It allows certain 2HKOs and 3HKOs to be turned into OHKOs and 2HKOs respectively, a godsend for offensive teams which need to prevent its Pokemon from being hit as much as possible
5. It helps to check some of the most fearsome offensive threats in the game that would otherwise have much more freedome

Spikes, on the other hand, is available to only a limited number of Pokemon, takes many turns to set up to achieve a desired result, and fails to hit a third of the Standard metagame. However, stacking it with Stealth Rock (or even Toxic Spikes) is an excellent way to create passive damage and if abused with moves such as Roar, Perish Song, or Leech Seed turns into a powerful strategy that can wear an opponent down quite quickly. This is the essence of a stall team and why they have become so effective.

That is not to say Spikes is useless, however. Spikes works well against Pokemon such as Swampert, Heatran, Blissey, and the like since they don't really care about damage from Stealth Rock. 25% damage on each switch in severely limits their freedom of use, especially if they are lacking a recovery move. Many Pokemon that are barely affected by Stealth Rock are severely hindered by the presence of Spikes. Stop trying to compare Stealth Rock and Spikes because they are two different moves used for two different purposes.

QuoteSince the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair.

No one is making you waste a move for Rapid Spin. In fact, most teams in Standard don't even bother to carry a spinner anymore and instead prefer to either play around Stealth Rock or build a team that is not affected by it too much. Stealth Rock's primary purpose is to impose a 'switching penalty' so that you have to think more carefully about your moves and can't just dance around by switching back and forth. It also stops things like Salamence and Gyarados from being more daunting of a prospect to face than they already are.

QuoteSo with what your saying, it just backs up the point that there should be a clause for it. It's extremely overused.

Just because something is overused does not mean there should be a clause for it. There should only be a clause for something if it impacts the metagame in such a way that it creates an environment where varied competition cannot properly function. Stealth Rock does not affect the variability of the metagame to an extent where it should be banned. Every Pokemon that is worth using is still usable and completely viable. There are also plenty of ways to stop Stealth Rock from being set up in the first place such as scarfed sleep leads, fast taunt leads, etc etc. It doesn't 'break' the game though, at least not to the extent introducing Kyogre into Standard would, and therefore does not warrant a ban.

QuoteObviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move.

Sure, let's ignore the fact that Shedinja is killed by any entry hazard, burn, poison, sandstorm, hail, pursuit, or faster supereffective move. Let's also ignore the fact that it cannot do anything against most opponents, so even if you somehow do succeed in stopping an onslaught, you're both going to have to make a blind switch lest your opponent bring in something like SD Empoleon and sweep. Shedinja is only useful in Ubers (if even there) because, yes, it stops Kyogre and there are Rain/Sun effects to cancel out SS/Hail. You still have to watch out for ubiquitous entry hazards though.

Roost is an excellent move because it negates the Rock/Ice/Electric weakness that flyers have which is very useful when you're fighting/trying to stall a Pokemon with those moves (aka Skarmory vs. Gyarados or something). I really don't see what you have against roost as plenty of flying types and levitating Pokemon carry it.

QuoteBe thankful for the 50%, so a single Ice Shard will take the poor bird out in a single hit, when it wouldn't if it had full HP. Also, there's a clause for OHKO moves. They're usually banned from battling, so that point is next to useless in this situation. Still, Stealth Rock should take 2-3 turns for maximum setup seeing as it does so much.

Ice Shard is only carried by Mamoswine and Weavile, both of whom are dealt with by something like Bronzong or a fast fighting-type such as Infernape and once they're taken out, something like Salamence will easily be able to sweep... except for the presence of Stealth Rock which knocks its HP down a bit and allows a faster Pokemon or something like Scizor to defeat it. Scizor does not kill a full health Salamence with Bullet Punch while Salamence can retaliate with Fire Blast and continue its sweep.

Your Sleep Clause Argument is weak. Being able to sleep multiple Pokemon results in a completely unbalanced metagame. You say that aromatherapy solves the problem, but what happens if your aromatherapy user gets slept? Someone can just use an Agility Smeargle and sleep an entire team then proceed to sweep with a DDmence or something. A metagame without sleep clause would revolve around the use of spore and fast sleep to incapacitate an entire opposing team, then sweep with something while the opponent is completely helpless. What if you just left your pokemon in until they woke up? Well then the smeargle can just use those free turns to set up Belly Drum or Spikes or something. Point is, unlimited sleep is much more broken than stealth rock is. It does damage every Pokemon, but it does not put anyone at so much of a disadvantage that it breaks the game, especially when both players can have it up at the same time. Wish, healing moves, smart teambuilding, and careful playing can minimize the effects of Stealth Rock while an Agility Smeargle without sleep clause is like a Groudon playing in NU. It's gamebreaking and there is a reason that its been banned.

Also, I kind of wrote the guide on entry hazards, so I probably have some vague idea what I'm talking about. just fyi ;)

Quote from: K on February 18, 2010, 02:32:37 PM
So, you're saying it didn't do anything that Spikes couldn't do. HURR

The only thing is different between spikes/toxic spikes and stealth rocks is the resist/weakness mechanic, which is nice for a move that can't be absorbed like Toxic Spikes. It never changed the game by itself, it just moved less adept pokemon off the charts faster.

Quote
Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair. :|

What a dumb arguement.

You don't HAVE to have a moveslot for Rapid Spin. There are pokemon that function perfectly well in Stealth Rocks without Rapid Spin having to be there. It's not even advised that you HAVE rapid spin unless it's really into your strategy.

And of course if it WAS in your strategy, I trust you're smart enough to make it work to the point where you're not complaining.

Quote
Obviously you don't even know how to use Shedinja. It can be completely immune to entire movesets at once, and can really decide the battle in the end when your opponent had only 1 pokemon left. (say they had a Kyogre-- where it usually doesn't have a move that can hit Shedinja) Also, yes. Let's waste yet ANOTHER intercourse ing moveslot and lose a darn ground immunity, as well as being wide open for an attack for that one turn just to heal damage from one move. :|

obviously you don't even know how bad Shedinja sucks. Especially in this metagame and how it's sucked so much more before it. Even without SR and Sandstorm (because honestlly T-tar usage has gone down) there are so many pokemon that shedinja can't do poop to, and a lot of them are used. And as Wedge said, while it can be used in Ubers SORTA, ubers is not OU, which is the metagame we're discussing. Tons of pokemon carry pursuit, and have been carrying pursuit for a really long time. Back in the day before SR got really popular T-Tar was around all the time. So Shedinja's NEVER been good. Just romanticized.

Quote from: Wedge on February 18, 2010, 07:35:06 PM
Stealth Rock and Spikes are two similar moves that accomplish different things. Stealth Rock is used on almost every team for several reasons:

1. It takes one turn to set up, allowing offensive teams to make good use of it
2. It is accessible to an enormous amount of Pokemon, so placing it on a team isn't too difficult
3. It hits every single Pokemon in the game, allowing it to stop your opponent from freely switching around your moves, and as Drez pointed out, it stops Focus Sash abuse
4. It allows certain 2HKOs and 3HKOs to be turned into OHKOs and 2HKOs respectively, a godsend for offensive teams which need to prevent its Pokemon from being hit as much as possible
5. It helps to check some of the most fearsome offensive threats in the game that would otherwise have much more freedom.

While I don't think that Stealth Rock completely breaks the bank, these bullets demonstrate my view of it. A metagame that should be based on creativity and tactics is reduced quite simply to power and more power. In third generation no one (or two) paradigms dominated almost each team; everything was varied, unpredictable, and, most importantly, novel. My experiences in both gens have had me asking questions like: Where are my defensive teams? Moderate? Move-based? Everything has been sacrificed, especially with the advent of Heavy (Hyper) Offense, for brute force. Being able to set up in 1 turn is anything but creative; it's easy as hell to do. One would think that more work is required to produce such a game-changing move, but unfortunately GF doesn't believe so.

Quote from: Mikoyan on February 18, 2010, 10:31:28 PM
While I don't think that Stealth Rock completely breaks the bank, these bullets demonstrate my view of it. A metagame that should be based on creativity and tactics is reduced quite simply to simpler power and more power. Where are my defensive teams? Moderate? Move-based? Everything has been sacrificed, especially with the advent of Heavy (Hyper) Offense, for brute force. Being able to set up in 1 turn is anything but creative; it's easy as hell to do. One would think that more work is required to produce such a game-changing move, but unfortunately GF doesn't believe so.

Saying that SR helps only offensive teams isn't true at all. Stall teams are based around using SR Spikes and Toxic Spikes in combination with forced switches and pseudo-hazing moves, and those are fairly effective in the hyper-offensive metagame of today. Also if you're going to complain about creativity, then SR is only a small thing in comparison to many other things. But the fact is you CAN be creative and still do well, you just have to work a bit harder, and when you do find that new creative set that works extremely well in the metagame, people take notice and next thing you know people are complaining about how your strategy is uncreative because EVERYBODY USES IT.

It's a vicious cycle.

Please see the original post in order to view the new topic. Do not submit any more arguments or points for previous topics.

Thank you.

If it oversimplifies the game or gives an unfair advantage over someone unable to do it. Or something along those lines.The glitches in RBY were cool because everyone could do them. As was the cloning glitch in GSC and the egg nature glitch in emerald and D/P. D/P tweaking is also an acceptable one.

So most glitches are perfectly fine because everyone can do them, and they don't break the game.

Some AR codes are acceptable because they just take away bullpoop from some dumb tasks like breeding for IVs. Those AR codes are usually:

IV checking code
Cloning code

because nobody cares if you clone, it's mainly used for trading anyway and IV checking is just a ninny that no one should have to spend too much time on.

I see that obviously all anyone wants to do is twist my words around completely into something I never said at all, then instantly change the topic and whine for "no further posting about a previous topic" before I can even offer a rebuttal. My points were comlpletely valid, and since sometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong, then have to throw fits and "block" me from having a further say in a matter that SHOULD deserve more discussion.

On this topic, I have to say that you picked one of the worst thigs to discuss after coming down from Stealth Rock. So here's ALL i have to say here.

Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned. I mean, shiny pokemon have much less value now that it's easy to hack them. I, myself, have over 200 legit shinies (not all of which were caught myself) and the firest thing I hear after saying it is "OMG YOU HACKER" :| I have never hacked these shinies.

Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.

Quote from: Wedge on February 18, 2010, 07:35:06 PM
K, please don't make a mockery of this thread.

This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. I hardly see how I am making a "mockery of this thread" by simply stating my point. I guess since you didn't agree with my opinions, my input was invalid. You, sir, apparently never leard the meaning of the term "debate."

QuoteStop using words like "HURR", at the very least in this thread, because they're tasteless, don't improve your argument, add nothing to the conversation, and make you look like an idiot. That being said, ":|" is not an adequate counterargument either.

I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.

QuoteIf you're going to say something, back it up. Also, don't reword what people are saying because that often changes the meaning and you'll end up arguing with yourself.

I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

Quote from: K on February 22, 2010, 01:50:24 PM
Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned.

Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

So its perfectly fair that people in Canada should suffer and never have the opportunity to get event only Pokemon, like Arceus, because of kind, duplicating, strangers, while you can duplicate your TMs all you want just so you can have the same move on all your Pokemon?

In my personal opinion, I believe that manipulating the game is fine as long as you don't alter the game. Allow me to explain:
When you clone a pokemon, generally done via Wi-Fi or Emerald glitch, you are making a double of a pre-existing pokemon; you are taking the 100% exact same data that already exists and copy-pasting it to another spot on your team/box. This, cloning, I consider perfectly fine, as you aren't necessarily changing how the game works; rather, you are simply making a back-up copy of something that the game has already allowed perfectly. In fact, clones could be considered just as legitimate as the real thing, since, in a way, they actually ARE the real thing. The concept goes for using hacks to make more TMs: you aren't doing anything the game would normally prohibit, you are simply manipulating the game to make move assignments easier.
Now, what I call altering is a tad different; this is where you do things that the game does not normally permit. For example, giving pokemon stats/moves/level-ups directly through cheating devices, as opposed to real items created artificially, can result in creating a pokemon that shouldn't truly exist, with stats and moves that should exist within that species, IV set, or nature. THAT, is "cheating," and as such I do not condone the spontaneous creation of pokemon like I do the cloning of pokemon.

Further more, I would just like to point out that when it comes to certain aspects of changing the game, you should take into account other trainers. Changing the game so that you can have an all-shiny team might seem okay at the time, since you're just changing your team color so you personally think it looks cooler. You might also want to give yourself a couple of cheat-generated lv100s so you can beat that last boss in your game. However, when you start trying to trade out these phony shinies for other people's legitimately earned pokemon without their knowledge, or challenge someone else's legitimately trained team using your hacked Garchomps, then you've definitely crossed the line.

Wedge, this is a dumb topic. Nobody is pro-hacking.

Quote from: K on February 22, 2010, 01:50:24 PM
[BAW BAW BAW]

Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned. I mean, shiny pokemon have much less value now that it's easy to hack them. I, myself, have over 200 legit shinies (not all of which were caught myself) and the [first] thing I hear after saying it is "OMG YOU HACKER" :| I have never hacked these shinies.

how is that relevant. Shinies aren't an advantage as much as it is fun for collectors.

Quote
Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

Just a time save, I can agree with this.

Quote
And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.
This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. BAW BAW BAW.

It's the self righteous "I KNOW EVERYTHING" attitude with nothing to back it up to be brutally honest.

Quote
I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.
I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

A.) we don't know you, so we're not as initially accepting as people who do know you.
B.) the HURRS and DURRS add to the "I"M ALWAYS RIGHT" think mentioned before. They're not funny, they're not insulting, they're just annoying because it shows that you refuse to consider other arguments.
C.) All the backing up can't do much of anything if you're wrong. Just know that.
D.) We're not making a big fuss.

Sorry we hurt your feelings

Quote from: K on February 22, 2010, 01:50:24 PM
I see that obviously all anyone wants to do is twist my words around completely into something I never said at all, then instantly change the topic and whine for "no further posting about a previous topic" before I can even offer a rebuttal. My points were comlpletely valid, and since sometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong, then have to throw fits and "block" me from having a further say in a matter that SHOULD deserve more discussion.

And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.

Buddy, the only one twisting people's words around here is you. Take a close look at the dates of the posts. I made the change of topic post a full two days after the last post had been made, meaning that the topic had been dead for a while. Your next post was a full four days after my post in the previous topic, so you can't really accuse me of "instantly changing the topic". Try again.

You seem to be the only person to think you have valid points, so maybe you should consider the possibility that they might not be. You also seem to be the only person around here throwing a fit, so I'm going to have to ask you to desist.

Quotesometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong

I can see. Would you like some assistance with that?

Quote
This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. I hardly see how I am making a "mockery of this thread" by simply stating my point. I guess since you didn't agree with my opinions, my input was invalid. You, sir, apparently never leard the meaning of the term "debate."

No, this is actually an international internet forum and in no way are you guaranteed the right of freedom of speech. You are making a mockery of this thread by making points that are not well researched, lacking in evidence, contrary to previously presented facts, and most importantly, not thinking logically or rationally about the points that you make. I don't agree with your method of arguing because it is ineffective and baseless. If you have something to say, back it up. As an example of you using nothing but conjecture, I will use your next statement.

Quote
I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.

I'm not quite sure how much more clearly I can state this, as it is stated rather bluntly in the first rule of this thread, but nevertheless, I shall try again.

Please be COMPLETELY serious.

If you can inject humor into your statements without sacrificing your argument, by all means, please do so, but please be tasteful and use it appropriately.

Call it what you will, but if you are going to post in my thread, I ask that you follow my rules and be serious.

Quote
I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

Here's an example:

Quote from: exampleSince the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair.

This is a rather poor argument because you are not being forced to use a moveslot for Rapid Spin and comparing sleep to Stealth Rock doesn't quite work.

Quote
I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

I you want suppose THESE too around twist words to.

Quote from: Wedge on February 22, 2010, 07:54:54 PM
Buddy, the only one twisting people's words around here is you. Take a close look at the dates of the posts. I made the change of topic post a full two days after the last post had been made, meaning that the topic had been dead for a while. Your next post was a full four days after my post in the previous topic, so you can't really accuse me of "instantly changing the topic". Try again.

Well excuse me for having a life and being away from a computer for 4 days. I couldn't help being busy :|

QuoteYou seem to be the only person to think you have valid points, so maybe you should consider the possibility that they might not be. You also seem to be the only person around here throwing a fit, so I'm going to have to ask you to desist.

I'll consider that once you consider the fact that I might have a reason here. I might have a point I'm trying to make, but obviously you're too blind to even look far enough to see it. Also, "throwing a fit" .. i'd say i'm acting pretty mature with my debates, but if you think I'm acting a bit moody, blame the depression meds I'm no longer taking. I get pretty irritable without them.

QuoteNo, this is actually an international internet forum and in no way are you guaranteed the right of freedom of speech. You are making a mockery of this thread by making points that are not well researched, lacking in evidence, contrary to previously presented facts, and most importantly, not thinking logically or rationally about the points that you make. I don't agree with your method of arguing because it is ineffective and baseless. If you have something to say, back it up. As an example of you using nothing but conjecture, I will use your next statement.

This is a debate thread and I am certainly guaranteed my right to an opinion. And I hardly see how adding my opinion can "make a mockery of this thread." You want evidence? Just say so. I'll give you your darn evidence. Whenever I have something to say, I wait for opinions before backing things up. It's how I argue, and I'm not one to throw out heaps of information before stating my topic. Maybe you can only handle your own form of arguing. I must have over-estimated your capability of debating. Sorry.

QuoteI'm not quite sure how much more clearly I can state this, as it is stated rather bluntly in the first rule of this thread, but nevertheless, I shall try again.

Please be COMPLETELY serious.

Well, in a board like this, saying to be "completely serious" means to be MOSTLY serious. I can forgive you for this since you don't post here much, but I'd just like you to know that this is NSFCD. You can hardly ever find complete seriousness here.

QuoteIf you can inject humor into your statements without sacrificing your argument, by all means, please do so, but please be tasteful and use it appropriately.

God I love contradictions. Yes, we'll be completely serious, but by all means inject humor into our statements. THAT'S WHAT I WAS DOING.

QuoteCall it what you will, but if you are going to post in my thread, I ask that you follow my rules and be serious.

You aren't in complete control just because you started a thread. Sorry, but no. You aren't. We all have our rights here. Or i can make my own thread. Would you prefer that?

QuoteThis is a rather poor argument because you are not being forced to use a moveslot for Rapid Spin and comparing sleep to Stealth Rock doesn't quite work.

I thought we said that topic was dead. BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES MUCH.

QuoteI you want suppose THESE too around twist words to.

Right darn that I you're to want. Actually, no. I believe I know exactly what you're saying. Also, you're absolutely hilarious. :|

This is stupid, you guys are stupid

I am an avid user of Pokesav, you know, the pokemon hacking tool. However, I only use pokemon with legal abilities, stats, moves, PP, and I try to use reasonable IV's except for the two or three pokemon that I have where I actually breeded for near perfect IV's. Any pokemon I use, I assure you is completely within its natural limitations. After all, if you win through cheating you aren't winning at all.

It's a wonderful program that saves an incredible amount of time and that's my primary motivation for using it.

All of that being said I support hacking as long as you don't use it to alter a Pokemon's limitations for competitive use. If you want to make a Wonder Guard Light Ball Exploding Pikachu or a Wonder Guard Garchomp with 999 in every stat then by all means do so, just don't use them for competitive play.

Quote from: Zero on March 01, 2010, 05:49:32 PM
I am an avid user of Pokesav, you know, the pokemon hacking tool. However, I only use pokemon with legal abilities, stats, moves, PP, and I try to use reasonable IV's except for the two or three pokemon that I have where I actually breeded for near perfect IV's. Any pokemon I use, I assure you is completely within its natural limitations. After all, if you win through cheating you aren't winning at all.

It's a wonderful program that saves an incredible amount of time and that's my primary motivation for using it.

All of that being said I support hacking as long as you don't use it to alter a Pokemon's limitations for competitive use. If you want to make a Wonder Guard Light Ball Exploding Pikachu or a Wonder Guard Garchomp with 999 in every stat then by all means do so, just don't use them for competitive play.

That's my opinion. I do not use pokesav however, since i think it's unfair in competitive play. Hackers who use it can get good pokemon much easier than non-hackers can. its unfair.

however, hacking for private use is ok. i have an extra copy of FireRed that it completely hacked up. fun to play with. =P

Quote from: K on March 01, 2010, 07:14:43 PM
That's my opinion. I do not use pokesav however, since i think it's unfair in competitive play. Hackers who use it can get good pokemon much easier than non-hackers can. its unfair.

however, hacking for private use is ok. i have an extra copy of FireRed that it completely hacked up. fun to play with. =P

It's unfair that I took the necessary precautions to gain the same pokemon in 30 seconds that it took a guy that spent days/weeks breeding and raising for the right IV's, nature, etc. to get? That isn't unfair. That's just being smart. Why waste all the effort and time when you can spend about 5 minutes or less making a legitimate team within natural limitations? Pokesav is incredibly easy to use and incredibly easy to gain access to, so the only excuse other than "I haz no internetz" is that you enjoy slaving away at the game, which is fine as long as you don't try to criticize others for using the program. Not everyone has the weeks to spend that it sometimes takes to get a right natured, good IV'd pokemon with the right moves.

The only reason I can think of as to why anyone would think using the program to create what are essentionally legitimate pokemon "unfair" is that the users saved time and the non-users didn't, which is either jealousy or just plain faggotry.

My argument is all about efficiency really. My oppurtunity costs for slaving away trying to get good pokemon are dramatically high, reducing those costs are a dire need, because I still want good pokemon and I still want to play competitively(though right now I've withdrawn from the current metagame because of how gay it is, obviously temporary), but I still have obligations and many other things to do that are far more important.

Again, as long as you don't mess with a Pokemon's natural limitations it shouldn't be an issue.

Quote from: Zero on March 01, 2010, 07:34:37 PM
It's unfair that I took the necessary precautions to gain the same pokemon in 30 seconds that it took a guy that spent days/weeks breeding and raising for the right IV's, nature, etc. to get? That isn't unfair. That's just being smart. Why waste all the effort and time when you can spend about 5 minutes or less making a legitimate team within natural limitations? Pokesav is incredibly easy to use and incredibly easy to gain access to, so the only excuse other than "I haz no internetz" is that you enjoy slaving away at the game, which is fine as long as you don't try to criticize others for using the program. Not everyone has the weeks to spend that it sometimes takes to get a right natured, good IV'd pokemon with the right moves.

The only reason I can think of as to why anyone would think using the program to create what are essentionally legitimate pokemon "unfair" is that the users saved time and the non-users didn't, which is either jealousy or just plain faggotry.

My argument is all about efficiency really. My oppurtunity costs for slaving away trying to get good pokemon are dramatically high, reducing those costs are a dire need, because I still want good pokemon and I still want to play competitively(though right now I've withdrawn from the current metagame because of how gay it is, obviously temporary), but I still have obligations and many other things to do that are far more important.

Again, as long as you don't mess with a Pokemon's natural limitations it shouldn't be an issue.

Finally some credible argument [I am writing this 3 sentence into to Zero's very very important point].
This raises the question: To what extent is something unfair? Because everything is accessible to everyone, right? And to what point is something unfair being abused given it was unfair in the first place?

Finally some intelligence in this thread.