NSFCD

For those of you who don't get the reference, I'll state in plainly. Do tiers exist (in your opinion)? Do you believe it to be some bull-poop that a bunch of tourneyfags have made just to sound superior, or do you believe it all (for the most part). For those of you who don't know, the current tier list is as follows;

Top Tier:

     Fox
     Falco

High Tier:

     Sheik
     Marth
     Peach

Middle Tier:

     Captain Falcon
     Ice Climbers
     Samus
     Dr. Mario
     Jigglypuff
     Mario
     Ganondorf

Low Tier:

     Link
     Luigi
     Donkey Kong
     Roy
     Young Link
     Pikachu

Bottom Tier:

     Yoshi
     Zelda
     Mr. Game and Watch
     Ness
     Bowser
     Kirby
     Pichu
     Mewtwo


Of course, who you main can affect your stance on the tiers, so do you think your main deserves a higher spot (or lower I guess) on the list? Same goes for characters that, while you don't main them, you think they are over-rated under-rated.


Yes, I believe in the tier list, and I myself am content with the list as it is (for the most part). My two biggest complaints are probably Mewtwo's position and Marth's. Both I believe should be higher. I'll start with mewtwo. I know he has some major flaws like the fact that he is a Very big target, he's easily KO'ed due to his light weight and floatiness, has an exceedingly poor approach, due to lack of fast defensive options, not to mention poor spot dodge, Forward throw does little damage and has minimal knockback, Has a very slow dash, and his Down smash is the only down smash to only hit on one side, but compared to Pichu (I'll use him as he is 1 spot above) he is much less of a mess. I find Pichu's cons outweighing his pros much more then Mewtwo's [cons vs. pros]. Also, when Taj and T0mmy played (very good players with Mewtwo and Pichu respectively) Taj won.


Now for Marth, I think he should be second on the tier list, right under Fox. Marth has so many pros and very little cons (http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Marth_%28SSBM%29). Not too mention the current world champion uses Marth (whether you consider Ken or Mew2king the champion). Marth is just way to good of a character to be ranked how he is.
Yeah, I don't have that much on Marth. :P Maybe I'll add some more later, as well as any other dislikes about the list.

I DO play as Peach or Shiek most of the time... ::)

But I play for fun.

I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:32:09 PM
I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

I 100% agree

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:32:09 PM
I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

Yes, but if your going to take Ken and T0mmy in a match, Ken is going to win because his character [Marth] is better. If some people of exact skill level play each other the one with the higher tier character will win.

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:36:12 PM

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:32:09 PM
I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

Yes, but if your going to take Ken and T0mmy in a match, Ken is going to win because his character [Marth] is better. If some people of exact skill level play each other the one with the higher tier character will win.

I dont believe that, i think there is somebody in the world who can beat them with pichu...

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 09:39:31 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:36:12 PM

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:32:09 PM
I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

Yes, but if your going to take Ken and T0mmy in a match, Ken is going to win because his character [Marth] is better. If some people of exact skill level play each other the one with the higher tier character will win.

I dont believe that, i think there is somebody in the world who can beat them with pichu...

If there was, he would be around the country (no matter what country that may be, though probably America of Japan) making tons of money, and Pichu would be higher on the tier list. Someone that good would be known.

I CAN beat anyone with Pichu, it takes skill. :O

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:42:06 PM

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 09:39:31 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:36:12 PM

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:32:09 PM
I don't believe in tiers, as skill really determines a character's worth. Someone might main with Pichu or Mewtwo and be able to take down Fox.

And besides, I mostly play for fun.

Yes, but if your going to take Ken and T0mmy in a match, Ken is going to win because his character [Marth] is better. If some people of exact skill level play each other the one with the higher tier character will win.

I dont believe that, i think there is somebody in the world who can beat them with pichu...

If there was, he would be around the country (no matter what country that may be, though probably America of Japan) making tons of money, and Pichu would be higher on the tier list. Someone that good would be known.

I dont even know any famous smash players...

Quote from: wiiboychris on November 17, 2007, 09:50:24 PM
I CAN beat anyone with Pichu, it takes skill. :O

My brawl main vs. Pikachu (since he is close enough to Pichu) match when Brawl comes out, whether you're being sarcastic or not :D

@thunderhero: Ok, we have Ken, KoreanDJ, Mew2king, Pc Chris, Gimpyfish, Taj, Forward, Wobbles, Captain Jack, Chu Dat, Chillin, Masashi, Aniki, Bombsoldier, Korius, Mikael, Isai, Azen, Dope, Timmy and Tommy, HugS, Rob$, Fastliketree, and Vidjogamer, just to name a few. WHY DO I FEEL SO ALONE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING INTO SMASH HERE

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:52:03 PM

Quote from: wiiboychris on November 17, 2007, 09:50:24 PM
I CAN beat anyone with Pichu, it takes skill. :O

My brawl main vs. Pikachu (since he is close enough to Pichu) match when Brawl comes out, whether you're being sarcastic or not :D

@thunderhero: Ok, we have Ken, KoreanDJ, Mew2king, Pc Chris, Gimpyfish, Taj, Forward, Wobbles, Captain Jack, Chu Dat, Chillin, Masashi, Aniki, Bombsoldier, Korius, Mikael, Isai, Azen, Dope, Timmy and Tommy, HugS, Rob$, Fastliketree, and Vidjogamer, just to name a few. WHY DO I FEEL SO ALONE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING INTO SMASH HERE

It's not that no one is "into" Smash. It's just that most people here play for fun.

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:59:05 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:52:03 PM

Quote from: wiiboychris on November 17, 2007, 09:50:24 PM
I CAN beat anyone with Pichu, it takes skill. :O

My brawl main vs. Pikachu (since he is close enough to Pichu) match when Brawl comes out, whether you're being sarcastic or not :D

@thunderhero: Ok, we have Ken, KoreanDJ, Mew2king, Pc Chris, Gimpyfish, Taj, Forward, Wobbles, Captain Jack, Chu Dat, Chillin, Masashi, Aniki, Bombsoldier, Korius, Mikael, Isai, Azen, Dope, Timmy and Tommy, HugS, Rob$, Fastliketree, and Vidjogamer, just to name a few. WHY DO I FEEL SO ALONE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING INTO SMASH HERE

It's not that no one is "into" Smash. It's just that most people here play for fun.

Meh. At least you get what I mean. Playing for fun though isn't going to help us beat Nsider2.

true dat...ill be serious when the time comes...either that or i wont participate...

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:01:33 PM

Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 09:59:05 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 09:52:03 PM

Quote from: wiiboychris on November 17, 2007, 09:50:24 PM
I CAN beat anyone with Pichu, it takes skill. :O

My brawl main vs. Pikachu (since he is close enough to Pichu) match when Brawl comes out, whether you're being sarcastic or not :D

@thunderhero: Ok, we have Ken, KoreanDJ, Mew2king, Pc Chris, Gimpyfish, Taj, Forward, Wobbles, Captain Jack, Chu Dat, Chillin, Masashi, Aniki, Bombsoldier, Korius, Mikael, Isai, Azen, Dope, Timmy and Tommy, HugS, Rob$, Fastliketree, and Vidjogamer, just to name a few. WHY DO I FEEL SO ALONE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING INTO SMASH HERE

It's not that no one is "into" Smash. It's just that most people here play for fun.

Meh. At least you get what I mean. Playing for fun though isn't going to help us beat Nsider2.

I'll be serious when the time comes. For now, it doesn't hurt to practice in Melee and have some fun.

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:02:46 PM
true dat...ill be serious when the time comes...either that or i wont participate...

At least you're saying you will become serious about it eventually, but you'll do better if you act serious now. You guys need to be whipped into ass-kicking shape before the time comes :P

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:05:27 PM

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:02:46 PM
true dat...ill be serious when the time comes...either that or i wont participate...

At least you're saying you will become serious about it eventually, but you'll do better if you act serious now. You guys need to be whipped into ass-kicking shape before the time comes :P

sheesh man, its just a game...and its not like there are any prizes...

I think tiers exist, but I don't care for them since I don't play competitively.

How tf can anyone say that tiers don't exist? :|

In this game, we have...  how many unique characters with unique movesets?

Each of their moves does different amounts of damage.

each of their moves has different amounts of recovery time.

each of their recovery moves go further/shorter.

Each character has a different speed than each other character.

How can tiers not exist?


I main Yoshi, I think he belong higher on the list, but I know that he won't (because he isn't used much).  The tier list is subject to change, dependant on how much certain characters are used.  Fox is extremely overpowered, and can shine any character to death incredibly easily.


I ask again, in a fighting game where the characters are obviously not equally balanced, how can tiers not exist?

They obviously do.


Tiers matter because some people play the game for money.

The thing about the NS2 vs. NSF.net tournament thing is Brawl is not out yet. Meaning your main could have been changed to be different. For example, say someone is good as Ganondorf in Melee. Then in Brawl, he's completely different. We'll all need time to adjust to the new things in Brawl, so there's no use in worrying about it now.

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:20:40 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:05:27 PM

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:02:46 PM
true dat...ill be serious when the time comes...either that or i wont participate...

At least you're saying you will become serious about it eventually, but you'll do better if you act serious now. You guys need to be whipped into ass-kicking shape before the time comes :P

sheesh man, its just a game...and its not like there are any prizes...

I think you missed the ":P" smiley, as that usually indicates an amount of jokingness. Also, I'll quote something from encyclopedia dramatica; ""If the choice is either full on tourneytard or ultra-casual not even caring who wins, I'll go tourney myself. The whole point of competition is to do your best to win. If you're not trying your hardest, go read a book, take a nap, anything else that doesn't have winners and losers."

That's basically my stance on that. If your not going to go all out, don't do poop.

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:26:25 PM

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:20:40 PM

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:05:27 PM

Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:02:46 PM
true dat...ill be serious when the time comes...either that or i wont participate...

At least you're saying you will become serious about it eventually, but you'll do better if you act serious now. You guys need to be whipped into ass-kicking shape before the time comes :P

sheesh man, its just a game...and its not like there are any prizes...

I think you missed the ":P" smiley, as that usually indicates an amount of jokingness. Also, I'll quote something from encyclopedia dramatica; ""If the choice is either full on tourneytard or ultra-casual not even caring who wins, I'll go tourney myself. The whole point of competition is to do your best to win. If you're not trying your hardest, go read a book, take a nap, anything else that doesn't have winners and losers."

That's basically my stance on that. If your not going to go all out, don't do s***.

I'll go all out in the tournament. But now, until I get Brawl and get some good serious practice in it, I'm gonna relax.

In my mind, tiers are bull.  If you know how to use a characters special style, then you will own.  IMO, Fox is overrated and easily beaten because of his fast fall.  Like Jono said, Yoshi should be much higher up, but nobody knows how to use him right so the tier makers say hes dumb and put him at the bottom.  Tiers are all opinion, and all they do to figure tiers is have lvl 9s play each other anyway, so they are meaningless when it gets down to it.  I've seen the charts, the data, and all that, and it just doesn't make any sense because tiers aren't based on skill, they're based on computers and opinion, so in my mind, tiers are fake and taken too seriously.  No tiers for Brawl, please.  So because of my opinion, I am NOT gonna drop my best character just cause he's on the bottom tier.  I feel confident that I can beat most people I go against, and that matters much much more than how high your character ranks.  And besides, you can't have people with equal skill... especially because they use different characters.  You can't just say that one person is EXACTLY the same skill level as someone else, because whoever wins is obviously the better.

w00t go Yoshi!

Quote from: Depster on November 17, 2007, 10:41:49 PM
In my mind, tiers are bull.  If you know how to use a characters special style, then you will own.  IMO, Fox is overrated and easily beaten because of his fast fall.  Like Jono said, Yoshi should be much higher up, but nobody knows how to use him right so the tier makers say hes dumb and put him at the bottom.  Tiers are all opinion, and all they do to figure tiers is have lvl 9s play each other anyway, so they are meaningless when it gets down to it.  I've seen the charts, the data, and all that, and it just doesn't make any sense because tiers aren't based on skill, they're based on computers and opinion, so in my mind, tiers are fake and taken too seriously.  No tiers for Brawl, please.  So because of my opinion, I am NOT gonna drop my best character just cause he's on the bottom tier.  I feel confident that I can beat most people I go against, and that matters much much more than how high your character ranks.  And besides, you can't have people with equal skill... especially because they use different characters.  You can't just say that one person is EXACTLY the same skill level as someone else, because whoever wins is obviously the better.

w00t go Yoshi!

Do you have any proof that they pit a bunch of level 9's together? L9's are horrible. They DI the same way everytime, and they have no mind-game what-so-ever. The list is based off of, as said in Jono's other thread, how that character does in tournaments and their overall highest metagame. Potential doesn't mean poop, that is why Yoshi isn't high on the list. It's what people can actually do with them.

A person explaining the tier list once showed how it was done by having characters with people the "exact same" skill level playing each other (lvl 9s) He had a huge flowchart of how many times each character beat every other character a such.  It was obvious he just used 9s

Quote from: Depster on November 17, 2007, 10:55:29 PM
A person explaining the tier list once showed how it was done by having characters with people the "exact same" skill level playing each other (lvl 9s) He had a huge flowchart of how many times each character beat every other character a such.  It was obvious he just used 9s

Link me to the thread on Smashboards.

Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:58:05 PM

Quote from: Depster on November 17, 2007, 10:55:29 PM
A person explaining the tier list once showed how it was done by having characters with people the "exact same" skill level playing each other (lvl 9s) He had a huge flowchart of how many times each character beat every other character a such.  It was obvious he just used 9s

Link me to the thread on Smashboards.

Shoot I saw that thread so long ago (it was on smashboards btw)  I saw that thing at least 7 or 8 months ago, otherwise I would.

tiers are based off of tourney and competitive play, meaning that characters that aren't used (Mewtwo, Pichu) are automatically going to be lower on the tier list.  More representation might move them further up, and it might not, but the fact that they aren't represented means that they won't move.

but that doesn't mean that they're equal characters to the higher tiered characters.

Of coarse tiers exist and I main Bowser and second Marth/Falco

I'm with the majority, tiers exist. If you can't see that some characters are clearly better than others then you clearly haven't been playing the game very seriously. As a competitive Smasher I've come to realise this, and yet I still main Roy xD