If you have a game where the characters are not all clones of each other, you have tiers. There are characters that are better than others, obviously. There are characters that are faster than others. that are stronger than others. There are some characters that only differ in the size of their hitbox. that comes in to play as well. Weight, Size, Lag. Everything is a contributing factor.
So now that we've established that not all characters are created equal, it's safe to say that you can make a list of which character is the best of all the characters.
Hence, you have a tier list.
Now, some characters have advantages over others higher on the tier list. However, their place on the tier list is determined not only by their being better characters overall (as in can destroy everyone else except said character), but by the amount of use they get in tourney play.
Tier lists are made so that those who compete in tournaments get a guideline as to who generally trumps who at an equal skill level.
"Gimpyfish's existance means that tiers don't".
Wrong.
Gimpyfish is incredible. However, that does not mean that if there was an equally matched person playing Fox that he would either win or lose. Chances are, however, that Fox would win.
Gimpyfish makes up for Bowser's flaws, and turns them into advantages. Gimpyfish is the incredible one, not Bowser. Tiers still exist.
Evilflame101 says:
"... tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve."
Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull poop.
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:41:24 PM
Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull s***.
Like me. And Jono, you said in your post that it's the player not the character... That's just an oxi-moron toward saying that characters are better than different characters...
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
That's why I'm so glad Brawl is Wi-fi, so I don't have to go to tourneys to own people with ma mad Yoshi skills.
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
Yah, there are tiers in a lot of games.
I just don't care about them in Melee because I don't play competitively.
Quote from: Depster on November 17, 2007, 10:44:03 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:41:24 PM
Everything you say is true, but the sad thing is there will also be some ignorant casualfags out there who think tiers are a bunch of bull s***.
Like me. And Jono, you said in your post that it's the player not the character... That's just an oxi-moron toward saying that characters are better than different characters...
right, but just because some players are better than others, don't mean that they can't defy it.
at the same time, just because they can defy the tier list, doesn't mean it isn't there.
characters that are unique to themselves means a tier list exists.
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.
Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.
I don't play competitively. I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 17, 2007, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.
Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.
I don't play competitively. I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.
Do you know that they didn't?
And yes, tiers exist. But they don't need to affect Smash players like that. People use Fox because he is top-tier, even if they hate Fox. They might love Pichu, but not use it because it's low-tier. The point of Smash is to be able to duke it out as your favorite character.
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 11:05:20 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 17, 2007, 11:01:47 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.
Retro Studios didn't intend for us to be able to play a 22% game of Metroid Prime, but we did it anyways because it's fun.
I don't play competitively. I'm just pointing out that in a game that is unbalanced, you get a list of characters from best to worst.
Do you know that they didn't?
And yes, tiers exist. But they don't need to affect Smash players like that. People use Fox because he is top-tier, even if they hate Fox. They might love Pichu, but not use it because it's low-tier. The point of Smash is to be able to duke it out as your favorite character.
which is what I do. :D
They didn't. That's why they sealed up the Players Choice version of Metroid Prime to block things like early space jump.
and MP2.
and MP3.
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
You don't seem to understand that Sakurai never intended (as far as I know) for Smash to be like this. Seriously, I don't see why people are disappointed or mad at gimmick or big stages. You have to admit, playing no items on Final Destination will get pretty boring. Items and gimmicks help prove a person's superiority by showing their adaptability, or if they can react to something like a Bob-omb, Hammer, or Poke'ball.
Casual players sterotype anyone who plays competitively in the fact that all we play is FD. The list of tournament legal (for the most part) stages can be found here (http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/8236/mlgstagesphannauj4.jpg).
Items can prove superiority, but for the most part they can get rid of it completely. There is a much higher chance that, if I were to go face Ken right now, if I used fox and items were on very high I could beat him. Laser him when the match starts, and then vagina-y foot around Hyrule Temple searching for items. Items let anyone win. That defeats so much skill. Only the best should win, not some random scrub.
from what I've read. Don't items only exaggerate the tier list even more? The only character that really benefits from it is Mewtwo. Fox can reflect everything and pick up everything, so he moves from High tier to God tier. Falco moves into Demi-god tier, and the characters that are fastest and can spam item throws move in behind them (Falcon, etc).
Is that right, or did I hear it wrong?
Quote from: Jono2 on November 17, 2007, 11:16:35 PM
from what I've read. Don't items only exaggerate the tier list even more? The only character that really benefits from it is Mewtwo. Fox can reflect everything and pick up everything, so he moves from High tier to God tier. Falco moves into Demi-god tier, and the characters that are fastest and can spam item throws move in behind them (Falcon, etc).
Is that right, or did I hear it wrong?
Another thing is, items aren't cheap. If you are TRULY skilled, you would be able to win even WITH items! It shouldn't matter!
I'm better than ALL my friends WITH and WITHOUT iems! To me, I just need a different stratagy when dealing wih items then I do without them.
Simple as that!
No, the thing is that items exaggerate the tier list. Yeah, you should be able to play with items, but if pros play with items, it only makes the disparity between Fox, Falco and Falcon and the rest of the characters even bigger.
Which is why items aren't used, because they make the game even more unbalanced. it's a balance issue, not a "items aren't fun, so let's not use them." issue.
exploding capsules also don't help.
Just play as your favorite characters like I do.
I don't care at all about being famous by playing Smash. But tiers do exist, and that's a fact. Strengths and weaknesses were programmed into each character. But some people take Smash too seriously.
I agree with Tuppy on this one.
My best character is Bowser and I'm absolutely amazing with him. I have proven this by beating my addict friends who play as Marth, Fox, and ... Jiggley puff. He is actually very good with Jiggley.
I beat them all at once and I beat them one on one. I suppose I have talent like Gimpy but I'm probably not that good. Oh and the tier list DOES exist.
I agree about tiers. They do exist, but it cancels out when players fight other players. I mean, you can't say for certain that Fox will win against Bowser if two players duke it out. He has a slightly better chance, but if the Bowser user is like Gimpy or something, and the Fox user is some everyday guy, that chance goes out the window, for the most part.
And items can unbalance the game, yes, but not so much as to have a hissy fit about it and not use them. It ruins the fun of seeing someone get smashed in the face with a baseball bat, or getting blown up with a walking bomb. Who wouldn't love to see that? And the chance of a capsule or some other carrier exploding is a chance people would have to take. The items can also BALANCE the game between two completely different skill levels.
Stages with gimmicks. I don't get why they get banned. They make things more fun. More interesting. Sticking to things like Yoshi's Island, FD, Battlefield, and small ass stages like that with little to no interesting things goin' on is boring as crap after the first twenty minutes.
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 10:09:48 AM
I agree about tiers. They do exist, but it cancels out when players fight other players. I mean, you can't say for certain that Fox will win against Bowser if two players duke it out. He has a slightly better chance, but if the Bowser user is like Gimpy or something, and the Fox user is some everyday guy, that chance goes out the window, for the most part.
And items can unbalance the game, yes, but not so much as to have a hissy fit about it and not use them. It ruins the fun of seeing someone get smashed in the face with a baseball bat, or getting blown up with a walking bomb. Who wouldn't love to see that? And the chance of a capsule or some other carrier exploding is a chance people would have to take. The items can also BALANCE the game between two completely different skill levels.
Stages with gimmicks. I don't get why they get banned. They make things more fun. More interesting. Sticking to things like Yoshi's Island, FD, Battlefield, and small ass stages like that with little to no interesting things goin' on is boring as crap after the first twenty minutes.
I'm pretty sure that the tier list is for when people of the same skill level play each other.
I think he fails to understand that items and gimmick stages are banned so that the two players are fighting on equal ground where only the skill with their character matters.
Quote from: LemonManX on November 18, 2007, 04:19:48 PM
I think he fails to understand that items and gimmick stages are banned so that the two players are fighting on equal ground where only the skill with their character matters.
I know this. I just think it's stupid to ban them, because if NO one is of equal skill. So, the items and gimmicks even out the advantages and disadvantages. That's all I was stating.
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 05:16:52 PM
Quote from: LemonManX on November 18, 2007, 04:19:48 PM
I think he fails to understand that items and gimmick stages are banned so that the two players are fighting on equal ground where only the skill with their character matters.
I know this. I just think it's stupid to ban them, because if NO one is of equal skill. So, the items and gimmicks even out the advantages and disadvantages. That's all I was stating.
no, they don't. they exaggerate the tiers even more, because faster characters can grab items faster! It raises the rankings of floating characters (jiggs & kirby), but that is negated by the fact that they can be killed by solidly thrown items (star rod, BBat) at criminally low percents. pichu suffers, mewtwo raises, Fox becomes a god, and Falco becomes his demi.
Items do not even out play. they create even more variables to work with, leading to more randomness, leading to matches where the winner may not truly be the better character.
If they're the better player, they'll be able to get by the items easily, no? They'll be able to adapt, no?
SSB runs off of randomness. Why are the gimmicks there? Randomness. ATs? Randomness. It makes the game what it is. Tournament players have turned it into something that isn't fun, or at least, they're trying. Sure, I myself play on FD, and I don't use items, but that's because it's easier to have a serious fight with my friends who vagina-y out and run away all the time. But people who are different skill levels but want a serious fight won't.
I put a lvel 9 Yoshi vs. a level 9 Fox.
Guess who won?
Yoshi did. <3
Quote from: Triforceman22 on November 18, 2007, 05:56:00 PM
I put a lvel 9 Yoshi vs. a level 9 Fox.
Guess who won?
Yoshi did. <3
Doesn't it depend on the skill of the player?
Quote from: Tuppyluver1 on November 18, 2007, 05:57:09 PM
Quote from: Triforceman22 on November 18, 2007, 05:56:00 PM
I put a lvel 9 Yoshi vs. a level 9 Fox.
Guess who won?
Yoshi did. <3
Doesn't it depend on the skill of the player?
nope....
to equal leveled players
and the lower tier won....
CPU's are morons, they don't count. Hence why tiers are decided by tournament results and character placings.
And the items and gimmicks don't even things out, they unbalance the game a lot more. And allow for stupid item campers, and whilst they can be beaten its just an annoying strategy.
In fun, non ranked matches then I must say items and gimmicks are fun. But in matches that mean something I just want to fight someone character-to-character with as little hazards as possible.
The first tiers were made by seeing what lvl 9 character won most times out of 10, though. I'm agreeing that they changed because of tourneys though. IMO tiers don't make a single bit of difference
That's the thing though, NO fight means anything. It only proves who's more of a prodigy or who nerds over the game more than others. Being a pro gamer isn't something to be proud of, because you're basically announcing you waste your time in life on video games.
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 06:50:46 PM
That's the thing though, NO fight means anything. It only proves who's more of a prodigy or who nerds over the game more than others. Being a pro gamer isn't something to be proud of, because you're basically announcing you waste your time in life on video games.
offtopic.
There is no way to think that tiers do not exist.
Though everyone should be able to adapt to items, someone playing as bowser will have an even harder time playing against fox when items are on than when they are off. Fox can just wait for items to appear to spam them on bowser, and bowser can do absolutely nothing to counter it.
but you can't have people with the exact same skill. One is Always better. Period.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 18, 2007, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 06:50:46 PM
That's the thing though, NO fight means anything. It only proves who's more of a prodigy or who nerds over the game more than others. Being a pro gamer isn't something to be proud of, because you're basically announcing you waste your time in life on video games.
offtopic.
There is no way to think that tiers do not exist.
Though everyone should be able to adapt to items, someone playing as bowser will have an even harder time playing against fox when items are on than when they are off. Fox can just wait for items to appear to spam them on bowser, and bowser can do absolutely nothing to counter it.
Did I ever ONCE say I don't think they exist?
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 08:57:22 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 18, 2007, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 06:50:46 PM
That's the thing though, NO fight means anything. It only proves who's more of a prodigy or who nerds over the game more than others. Being a pro gamer isn't something to be proud of, because you're basically announcing you waste your time in life on video games.
offtopic.
There is no way to think that tiers do not exist.
Though everyone should be able to adapt to items, someone playing as bowser will have an even harder time playing against fox when items are on than when they are off. Fox can just wait for items to appear to spam them on bowser, and bowser can do absolutely nothing to counter it.
Did I ever ONCE say I don't think they exist?
that wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 18, 2007, 09:01:45 PM
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 08:57:22 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 18, 2007, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: Zanryu on November 18, 2007, 06:50:46 PM
That's the thing though, NO fight means anything. It only proves who's more of a prodigy or who nerds over the game more than others. Being a pro gamer isn't something to be proud of, because you're basically announcing you waste your time in life on video games.
offtopic.
There is no way to think that tiers do not exist.
Though everyone should be able to adapt to items, someone playing as bowser will have an even harder time playing against fox when items are on than when they are off. Fox can just wait for items to appear to spam them on bowser, and bowser can do absolutely nothing to counter it.
Did I ever ONCE say I don't think they exist?
that wasn't directed at anyone in particular.
Oh, sorry. My mistake. I presumed it was aimed at me since you quoted my post.
i do believe in tiers! but i use ness. is that wrong? :-\
Quote from: WaterGod on November 18, 2007, 09:19:31 PM
i do believe in tiers! but i use ness. is that wrong? :-\
nope. you should use whoever you're best with, or rather, whoever you want to use the most. :P
Exactly, I believe in tiers but yet I use Roy...
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
Have you considered that some people see being the "best" at a video game as a worthwhile accomplishment? Sure, I could sit on my behind playing video games all day to perfect my technique with a certain character or learn how to master some glitches, but I don't. I'd be giving up more important things in exchange for playing a dumb game for that amount of time. Heck, I've been playing an hour or two at most on a daily basis. Why just that amount of time?
Because I don't care if I improve my technique or not. I don't care if I'm not the best smasher in the world. I don't care if there's money prizes for MLG tournaments or whatever. I'm more concerned about having fun when I play the game instead of following some stupid made-up rules.
maybe there are tiers but at least they'r no where near as unbalanced and unfair as metroid prime hunters.
The thing is...
How can items make it unfair if both players have acces to them?
I use Ness becuase he is fun as hell to use, I just love the look on his face when he PK Thunders himself
You touurney players have ruined smash, anyone remember the 64 days? That was fun!
Quote from: GrimTuesday on November 19, 2007, 03:30:06 AM
The thing is...
How can items make it unfair if both players have acces to them?
I use Ness becuase he is fun as hell to use, I just love the look on his face when he PK Thunders himself
You touurney players have ruined smash, anyone remember the 64 days? That was fun!
because some characters can get items faster and use them more effectively than others, and some characters are effected by items more than others...
as for playing games competitively,
speeddemosarchive.com
Quote from: Dei Enyt on November 19, 2007, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
Have you considered that some people see being the "best" at a video game as a worthwhile accomplishment? Sure, I could sit on my behind playing video games all day to perfect my technique with a certain character or learn how to master some glitches, but I don't. I'd be giving up more important things in exchange for playing a dumb game for that amount of time. Heck, I've been playing an hour or two at most on a daily basis. Why just that amount of time?
Because I don't care if I improve my technique or not. I don't care if I'm not the best smasher in the world. I don't care if there's money prizes for MLG tournaments or whatever. I'm more concerned about having fun when I play the game instead of following some stupid made-up rules.
This isn't a matter of if you care about being the best or not. This is in Smash All-together, who the best is, and what you need to do to be able to become the best. You won't be the best if you just play casually. Besides, playing intense matches and practicing your technique can be fun. That all just comes down to preference.
You know, I'm not denying this, but I think it also depends heavily on the skill of the player. for example, I play as Bowser quite often, and although he's bottom-tier, I win the majority of my matches with him.
Quote from: Driftr on November 19, 2007, 04:02:25 PM
You know, I'm not denying this, but I think it also depends heavily on the skill of the player. for example, I play as Bowser quite often, and although he's bottom-tier, I win the majority of my matches with him.
it is heavily dependant on the skill of the player. it's just that with players of near to equal skill, since there won't be a match-up of players of exactly equal skill, a higher tiered character has a better chance of winning, ruling out human error.
this is only for playing at the professional level. they don't really apply to casual play.
Quote from: GrimTuesday on November 19, 2007, 03:30:06 AM
The thing is...
How can items make it unfair if both players have acces to them?
I use Ness becuase he is fun as hell to use, I just love the look on his face when he PK Thunders himself
You touurney players have ruined smash, anyone remember the 64 days? That was fun!
Well, firstly.... when were we "tourney" players forcing you everyday Smashers to play with no items? Your free to do what you want... just don't go into tournaments hoping to be allowed to use items.
The items make it unfair because the game becomes about luck and just loses what balance it has. Sure, item hogging jerks can be beaten but its incredibly annoying when they go directly for the items.
Don't complain about us competitive Smashers when we don't force our ideas on you. Don't like how we play then don't go in tournaments.
Quote from: Dawei on November 19, 2007, 03:43:57 PM
Quote from: Dei Enyt on November 19, 2007, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
Have you considered that some people see being the "best" at a video game as a worthwhile accomplishment? Sure, I could sit on my behind playing video games all day to perfect my technique with a certain character or learn how to master some glitches, but I don't. I'd be giving up more important things in exchange for playing a dumb game for that amount of time. Heck, I've been playing an hour or two at most on a daily basis. Why just that amount of time?
Because I don't care if I improve my technique or not. I don't care if I'm not the best smasher in the world. I don't care if there's money prizes for MLG tournaments or whatever. I'm more concerned about having fun when I play the game instead of following some stupid made-up rules.
This isn't a matter of if you care about being the best or not. This is in Smash All-together, who the best is, and what you need to do to be able to become the best. You won't be the best if you just play casually. Besides, playing intense matches and practicing your technique can be fun. That all just comes down to preference.
And just how does whether or not the game is Smash determine whether I should care if I'm the best? You can have your made-up tourneyfag rules; I prefer the unpredictability that makes the game fun in the first place.
Quote from: Dei Enyt on November 19, 2007, 09:39:02 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 19, 2007, 03:43:57 PM
Quote from: Dei Enyt on November 19, 2007, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Triforce_Luigi on November 17, 2007, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 17, 2007, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 17, 2007, 10:51:05 PM
another fact is that players are better than other players, and probably the very best dont go professional and keep it to themselves (not knowing they have so much potential)
You're not going to become the best playing with computers and your same group of friends all the time. You have to play with good players, which, in turn, will reveal your awesomeness to a wider amount of people making you famous eventually.
What if you don't wanna be famous? What if you're shy and don't want to be seen as "the world's greatest Smasher"? Is it suddenly so wrong to play Smash for fun?
As I said, your not going to become the best by playing "for fun" with your little group of friends who like to go to Hyrule Temple over and over again and play FFAs. You have to play with other competitive people to get better.
Have you considered that some people see being the "best" at a video game as a worthwhile accomplishment? Sure, I could sit on my behind playing video games all day to perfect my technique with a certain character or learn how to master some glitches, but I don't. I'd be giving up more important things in exchange for playing a dumb game for that amount of time. Heck, I've been playing an hour or two at most on a daily basis. Why just that amount of time?
Because I don't care if I improve my technique or not. I don't care if I'm not the best smasher in the world. I don't care if there's money prizes for MLG tournaments or whatever. I'm more concerned about having fun when I play the game instead of following some stupid made-up rules.
This isn't a matter of if you care about being the best or not. This is in Smash All-together, who the best is, and what you need to do to be able to become the best. You won't be the best if you just play casually. Besides, playing intense matches and practicing your technique can be fun. That all just comes down to preference.
And just how does whether or not the game is Smash determine whether I should care if I'm the best? You can have your made-up tourneyfag rules; I prefer the unpredictability that makes the game fun in the first place.
nobody is forcing anyone to participate in tournaments here, or to play by tourney rules. :|
My brother and I actually prefer to play without items. it's nice knowing that an exploding capsule won't pop out of nowhere and kill me. We don't play competitively, and we play with items sometimes. (I always win though, ololo)
Quote from: LemonManX on November 19, 2007, 07:27:28 PM
Quote from: GrimTuesday on November 19, 2007, 03:30:06 AM
The thing is...
How can items make it unfair if both players have acces to them?
I use Ness becuase he is fun as hell to use, I just love the look on his face when he PK Thunders himself
You touurney players have ruined smash, anyone remember the 64 days? That was fun!
Well, firstly.... when were we "tourney" players forcing you everyday Smashers to play with no items? Your free to do what you want... just don't go into tournaments hoping to be allowed to use items.
The items make it unfair because the game becomes about luck and just loses what balance it has. Sure, item hogging jerks can be beaten but its incredibly annoying when they go directly for the items.
Don't complain about us competitive Smashers when we don't force our ideas on you. Don't like how we play then don't go in tournaments.
Okay I'll go eat my poop don't worry you don't have to do it :|, sakurai wouldn't put items in the game if we weren't meant to use them
Quote from: GrimTuesday on November 20, 2007, 12:41:06 AM
Quote from: LemonManX on November 19, 2007, 07:27:28 PM
Quote from: GrimTuesday on November 19, 2007, 03:30:06 AM
The thing is...
How can items make it unfair if both players have acces to them?
I use Ness becuase he is fun as hell to use, I just love the look on his face when he PK Thunders himself
You touurney players have ruined smash, anyone remember the 64 days? That was fun!
Well, firstly.... when were we "tourney" players forcing you everyday Smashers to play with no items? Your free to do what you want... just don't go into tournaments hoping to be allowed to use items.
The items make it unfair because the game becomes about luck and just loses what balance it has. Sure, item hogging jerks can be beaten but its incredibly annoying when they go directly for the items.
Don't complain about us competitive Smashers when we don't force our ideas on you. Don't like how we play then don't go in tournaments.
Okay I'll go eat my poop don't worry you don't have to do it :|, sakurai wouldn't put items in the game if we weren't meant to use them
right, but if you're playing a tournament, and you want to prove that you're truly better than someone else, you want as few variables as possible. that means no capsules exploding in your face as you're about to finish them off.
they do, I just ignore 'em
The fact is, every action results in an effect. That effect, depending what the effect WAS, leads to a WHOLE BUNCH of new actions, which, depending on which you choose to use, result in a different effect, until all of those actions and results combine together to form the outcome of the match!
And SOMETIMES those actions/effects have positive/negitave effects/actions that branch off of the original, resulting in a different outcome, in which can NEVER be calculated by no computer or ANY list!
In other words, it all depends on what happens that will decide the victor, and what happens comes from different people playing as different characters, NOT the tiers, or the basic IDEA of the tiers!
Quote from: Shujinco on November 20, 2007, 06:54:33 PM
The fact is, every action results in an effect. That effect, depending what the effect WAS, leads to a WHOLE BUNCH of new actions, which, depending on which you choose to use, result in a different effect, until all of those actions and results combine together to form the outcome of the match!
And SOMETIMES those actions/effects have positive/negitave effects/actions that branch off of the original, resulting in a different outcome, in which can NEVER be calculated by no computer or ANY list!
In other words, it all depends on what happens that will decide the victor, and what happens comes from different people playing as different characters, NOT the tiers, or the basic IDEA of the tiers!
Let's look at it this way.
A man can run 10 MPH.
A man in a wheelchair can go 8 MPH, but has better maneuverability.
Now, on a straightaway, the running man is favored to win, because he can go faster.
on a curvy track, let's say that the man in the wheelchair is favored to win.
That's how it works.
except that Fox is the man running 30 MPH while the rest of the characters in the game struggle to go 20.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 20, 2007, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on November 20, 2007, 06:54:33 PM
The fact is, every action results in an effect. That effect, depending what the effect WAS, leads to a WHOLE BUNCH of new actions, which, depending on which you choose to use, result in a different effect, until all of those actions and results combine together to form the outcome of the match!
And SOMETIMES those actions/effects have positive/negitave effects/actions that branch off of the original, resulting in a different outcome, in which can NEVER be calculated by no computer or ANY list!
In other words, it all depends on what happens that will decide the victor, and what happens comes from different people playing as different characters, NOT the tiers, or the basic IDEA of the tiers!
Let's look at it this way.
A man can run 10 MPH.
A man in a wheelchair can go 8 MPH, but has better maneuverability.
Now, on a straightaway, the running man is favored to win, because he can go faster.
on a curvy track, let's say that the man in the wheelchair is favored to win.
That's how it works.
except that Fox is the man running 30 MPH while the rest of the characters in the game struggle to go 20.
But what happens when, oh, lets say, the running man gets hit by a bus? THEN who wins?
Quote from: Shujinco on November 20, 2007, 08:44:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 20, 2007, 08:03:05 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on November 20, 2007, 06:54:33 PM
The fact is, every action results in an effect. That effect, depending what the effect WAS, leads to a WHOLE BUNCH of new actions, which, depending on which you choose to use, result in a different effect, until all of those actions and results combine together to form the outcome of the match!
And SOMETIMES those actions/effects have positive/negitave effects/actions that branch off of the original, resulting in a different outcome, in which can NEVER be calculated by no computer or ANY list!
In other words, it all depends on what happens that will decide the victor, and what happens comes from different people playing as different characters, NOT the tiers, or the basic IDEA of the tiers!
Let's look at it this way.
A man can run 10 MPH.
A man in a wheelchair can go 8 MPH, but has better maneuverability.
Now, on a straightaway, the running man is favored to win, because he can go faster.
on a curvy track, let's say that the man in the wheelchair is favored to win.
That's how it works.
except that Fox is the man running 30 MPH while the rest of the characters in the game struggle to go 20.
But what happens when, oh, lets say, the running man gets hit by a bus? THEN who wins?
the running men don't cross streets on their run. this is on a circular track. ;)
i suppose if you're playing with items, they're running down a busy street.
but if you're playing in a serious match, where as many random factors are to be eliminated as possible, as to determine who can
run faster, yes, the slower people win occassionally, but only if fox is having an off day.
but Fox also falls so fast, and his jump is so worthless. Once he gets touched, boom, he's dead. Too much fastfall
Quote from: Depster on November 20, 2007, 09:20:26 PM
but Fox also falls so fast, and his jump is so worthless. Once he gets touched, boom, he's dead. Too much fastfall
it doesn't stop him from being top of the tier list...
I don't know why... He isn't that good. Sure he runs, but he gets predictible very quickly, especially his B^
Ever heard of a little thing called waveshining? How about the pure rape of Fox's U-throw to U-air combo?
Fox is number one for a reason ya know...
Quote from: Depster on November 20, 2007, 09:24:26 PM
I don't know why... He isn't that good. Sure he runs, but he gets predictible very quickly, especially his B^
No good Fox player uses Firefox to attack. EVER. The only time it is really used is to recover when they are to low to use Fox Illusion. Also, one of the big things about Fox is being un-predictable, otherwise they are most likely going to get chain-grabbed. Your a member of Smashboards, but have you watched some KDJ, Mew2King, or PC Chris videos?
And his fast-fall is also an asset. Sure, it makes it easy to be combo'd (darn Marth...), but it helps out his shffl. There is also the fact that when you get used to playing with Fox (at least in my case) his fast fall becomes hardly noticeable. It doesn't impede me in the least. The one that is screwed when they get knocked off the edge is Falco. And besides, if you find all those as horrible weaknesses, the shine must make up for all of it. Waveshine=<3
Quote from: Dawei on November 21, 2007, 07:20:39 AM
Quote from: Depster on November 20, 2007, 09:24:26 PM
I don't know why... He isn't that good. Sure he runs, but he gets predictible very quickly, especially his B^
No good Fox player uses Firefox to attack. EVER. The only time it is really used is to recover when they are to low to use Fox Phantasm. Also, one of the big things about Fox is being un-predictable, otherwise they are most likely going to get chain-grabbed. Your a member of Smashboards, but have you watched some KDJ, Mew2King, or PC Chris videos?
And his fast-fall is also an asset. Sure, it makes it easy to be combo'd (dang Marth...), but it helps out his shffl. There is also the fact that when you get used to playing with Fox (at least in my case) his fast fall becomes hardly noticeable. It doesn't impede me in the least. The one that is screwed when they get knocked off the edge is Falco. And besides, if you find all those as horrible weaknesses, the shine must make up for all of it. Waveshine=<3
erm, im pretty sure its called fox illusion...falco's is falco phantasm...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 21, 2007, 09:08:02 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 21, 2007, 07:20:39 AM
Quote from: Depster on November 20, 2007, 09:24:26 PM
I don't know why... He isn't that good. Sure he runs, but he gets predictible very quickly, especially his B^
No good Fox player uses Firefox to attack. EVER. The only time it is really used is to recover when they are to low to use Fox Phantasm. Also, one of the big things about Fox is being un-predictable, otherwise they are most likely going to get chain-grabbed. Your a member of Smashboards, but have you watched some KDJ, Mew2King, or PC Chris videos?
And his fast-fall is also an asset. Sure, it makes it easy to be combo'd (dang Marth...), but it helps out his shffl. There is also the fact that when you get used to playing with Fox (at least in my case) his fast fall becomes hardly noticeable. It doesn't impede me in the least. The one that is screwed when they get knocked off the edge is Falco. And besides, if you find all those as horrible weaknesses, the shine must make up for all of it. Waveshine=<3
erm, im pretty sure its called fox illusion...falco's is falco phantasm...
Crap, your right. Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote from: Dawei on November 21, 2007, 10:31:13 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 21, 2007, 09:08:02 PM
Quote from: Dawei on November 21, 2007, 07:20:39 AM
Quote from: Depster on November 20, 2007, 09:24:26 PM
I don't know why... He isn't that good. Sure he runs, but he gets predictible very quickly, especially his B^
No good Fox player uses Firefox to attack. EVER. The only time it is really used is to recover when they are to low to use Fox Phantasm. Also, one of the big things about Fox is being un-predictable, otherwise they are most likely going to get chain-grabbed. Your a member of Smashboards, but have you watched some KDJ, Mew2King, or PC Chris videos?
And his fast-fall is also an asset. Sure, it makes it easy to be combo'd (dang Marth...), but it helps out his shffl. There is also the fact that when you get used to playing with Fox (at least in my case) his fast fall becomes hardly noticeable. It doesn't impede me in the least. The one that is screwed when they get knocked off the edge is Falco. And besides, if you find all those as horrible weaknesses, the shine must make up for all of it. Waveshine=<3
erm, im pretty sure its called fox illusion...falco's is falco phantasm...
Crap, your right. Thanks for pointing that out.
Haha! thanks! ;D
Wow, for a tier thread, this sure is short... If you're gonna sway people, you're not gonna do it with that hunk of wat-cha-ma-call-it.
Quote from: TamJammerz on November 22, 2007, 06:36:22 AM
Wow, for a tier thread, this sure is short... If you're gonna sway people, you're not gonna do it with that hunk of wat-cha-ma-call-it.
want it summarized?
in a fighting game where characters do not have equal movesets, speed, weight, or size, there are some characters better than others.
a tier list can be made just from that.
There ya go. Nobody should need any more proof than that, unless they're completely closed-minded.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 12:01:55 PM
Quote from: TamJammerz on November 22, 2007, 06:36:22 AM
Wow, for a tier thread, this sure is short... If you're gonna sway people, you're not gonna do it with that hunk of wat-cha-ma-call-it.
want it summarized?
in a fighting game where characters do not have equal movesets, speed, weight, or size, there are some characters better than others.
a tier list can be made just from that.
There ya go. Nobody should need any more proof than that, unless they're completely closed-minded.
some people here are closed minded ::)...*looks in mirror*
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
99% of people i know agree with you 100%, and im one of em... ;D
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
o rly?
I'll put that in the original message then. :O
I'm no pro or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's naive to think that they don't exist.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
o rly?
I'll put that in the original message then. :O
I'm no pro or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's naive to think that they don't exist.
but he said they do exist, theyre just in the form of skill...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 22, 2007, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
o rly?
I'll put that in the original message then. :O
I'm no pro or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's naive to think that they don't exist.
but he said they do exist, theyre just in the form of skill...
I was agreeing with him. :P
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 05:17:30 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 22, 2007, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
yes but tiers are not what you think, tiers are not how good a character is, but how much effort it will take to become best with them. High tiers are characters that take little or no skill to become good with, low tiers are characters that take tons of practice and skill to become good with, which an average player would be terrible as when they used them. Tiers are simply a learning curve.
o rly?
I'll put that in the original message then. :O
I'm no pro or anything, I'm just pointing out that it's naive to think that they don't exist.
but he said they do exist, theyre just in the form of skill...
I was agreeing with him. :P
ah, ok, i think everybody should agree with him...unless a game is crappy, its based off of pure skill and experiance, i mean, tiers as to who is better is some serious judging...i mean, if the next best ssbm player uses pichu, evryone will say pichu is high-tier, when hes the only one good with him, which is also skill...this is what i think...
Ehh, I don't think that's quite how it works... Even though the tier list is a guideline of sorts as to who is easiest to master, I still think that the top characters are better characters overall. Pichu is low because he dies at criminally low percents, and fox is high because of his shine.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 22, 2007, 05:32:51 PM
Ehh, I don't think that's quite how it works... Even though the tier list is a guideline of sorts as to who is easiest to master, I still think that the top characters are better characters overall. Pichu is low because he dies at criminally low percents, and fox is high because of his shine.
ah, yes, i think that too... i guess dawei thinks otherwise tho...i dont believe in a character being better overall... :)
When there is no player, yes, there are tiers. But whn there are playes it's about the skill, not so much the characters tier. If the player is amazing, and can beat the hioghest tier with the lowest, then it eliminates tiers.
So i think most of us can agree they exist, but they just have a different meaning then most people think, tiers are basically the learning curve, you have to spend a lot of time training to become good with pichu, and not that good to become good with marth, this also goes into the category or potential, Bowser, even though he seems really bad, if you master him, you can become very good with him, where as marth, you can play as for around 5 minutes and reach his full potential, and be pretty good. Another thing i want to bring up is finals smashes, it is very apparent that some are better then others. Look at pits, little guys fly at you, while samus covers the entire screen in a blast then becomes a new character, if you go down the list it is very apparent that some FS's are stronger, and better then others. But to get to the point tiers are basically learning curves, low tiers take more time to become good with, or take very experienced players to be good with.
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 22, 2007, 07:58:10 PM
So i think most of us can agree they exist, but they just have a different meaning then most people think, tiers are basically the learning curve, you have to spend a lot of time training to become good with pichu, and not that good to become good with marth, this also goes into the category or potential, Bowser, even though he seems really bad, if you master him, you can become very good with him, where as marth, you can play as for around 5 minutes and reach his full potential, and be pretty good. Another thing i want to bring up is finals smashes, it is very apparent that some are better then others. Look at pits, little guys fly at you, while samus covers the entire screen in a blast then becomes a new character, if you go down the list it is very apparent that some FS's are stronger, and better then others. But to get to the point tiers are basically learning curves, low tiers take more time to become good with, or take very experienced players to be good with.
Those little guys who fly at you are pretty powerfull... more powerful than Samus'...
well that wasn't the best example, but the point is, what your saying is that one FS is stronger then a different one, my point exactly.
Problem is, to become exceptionally good with even Fox, Falco and Marth their are little tricks and stuff that you need to master. Sure you could pick up and win with Fox... but to use him to his full potential you still have to put a lot of work into him.
Quote from: LemonManX on November 22, 2007, 08:40:35 PM
Problem is, to become exceptionally good with even Fox, Falco and Marth their are little tricks and stuff that you need to master. Sure you could pick up and win with Fox... but to use him to his full potential you still have to put a lot of work into him.
yes but you have to put more work into becoming that same goodness with say pichu, or bowser.
wow jono...what made you get the new icon.....?
As LemonMan said, becoming real good with Fox or Falco isn't a piece of cake. Yes, you don't have to have a ton of skill to win, but to use them well you do. If I found someone who used Bowser and they were really good, I doubt I could just hand them a controller with Fox and have him drillshining>waveshine infinite to shinespike. Same with getting a random kid to pillar with Falco.
And if it's all on potential, then why isn't Gimpyfish winning tournaments all over the world? Because he uses Bowser, who isn't as good as Sheik for example. It's not only one or the other. You need a combination to become the best. The reason Pichu's aren't winning real big tournaments is because he is BAD compared to plenty of characters, not because "no1 has realizd his potntial or tayks tym 2 get gud with him". But if you can show me a video of a Pichu beating a good fox main/alternate (Ken, PC Chris, Mew2king, fastliketree, kdj, whatever), then I will believe you. Not a video of T0mmy beating some random kid at a tourney using Marth.
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 22, 2007, 11:05:29 PM
wow jono...what made you get the new icon.....?
because I felt like changing it. >_>
Quote from: Dawei on November 23, 2007, 08:39:35 AM
As LemonMan said, becoming real good with Fox or Falco isn't a piece of cake. Yes, you don't have to have a ton of skill to win, but to use them well you do. If I found someone who used Bowser and they were really good, I doubt I could just hand them a controller with Fox and have him drillshining>waveshine infinite to shinespike. Same with getting a random kid to pillar with Falco.
And if it's all on potential, then why isn't GimpyFish winning tournaments all over the world? Because he uses Bowser, who isn't as good as Sheik for example. It's not only one or the other. You need a combination to become the best. The reason Pichu's aren't winning real big tournaments is because he is BAD compared to plenty of characters, not because "no1 has realizd his potntial or tayks tym 2 get gud with him". But if you can show me a video of a Pichu beating a good fox main/alternate (Ken, PC Chris, Mew2king, fastliketree, kdj, whatever), then I will believe you. Not a video of T0mmy beating some random kid at a tourney using Marth.
You basically took what i said and morphed it into your own thoughts... I said tiers are not how good someone is but how long it takes to reach there full potential, i am not saying that low tiers have higher potentials, because that would be a lie. the easiest way to put it, tiers are how long it takes to become professional level with a character. High tier's you cna become very good with in a little time, where as pichu would take forever to become good with, because of the fact he hurts himself and because of the fact that he dies easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQhXYuH9PM0
watch near the end of this video, pichu owns roy.
THE BEST WAY I CAN DESCRIBE MY OPINION ON THIS TOPIC IS QUOTED IN THE ORIGINAL POST OF THIS THREAD, basically tier=AMT of skill required in order to own with said character.
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 23, 2007, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: Dawei on November 23, 2007, 08:39:35 AM
As LemonMan said, becoming real good with Fox or Falco isn't a piece of cake. Yes, you don't have to have a ton of skill to win, but to use them well you do. If I found someone who used Bowser and they were really good, I doubt I could just hand them a controller with Fox and have him drillshining>waveshine infinite to shinespike. Same with getting a random kid to pillar with Falco.
And if it's all on potential, then why isn't GimpyFish winning tournaments all over the world? Because he uses Bowser, who isn't as good as Sheik for example. It's not only one or the other. You need a combination to become the best. The reason Pichu's aren't winning real big tournaments is because he is BAD compared to plenty of characters, not because "no1 has realizd his potntial or tayks tym 2 get gud with him". But if you can show me a video of a Pichu beating a good fox main/alternate (Ken, PC Chris, Mew2king, fastliketree, kdj, whatever), then I will believe you. Not a video of T0mmy beating some random kid at a tourney using Marth.
You basically took what i said and morphed it into your own thoughts... I said tiers are not how good someone is but how long it takes to reach there full potential, i am not saying that low tiers have higher potentials, because that would be a lie. the easiest way to put it, tiers are how long it takes to become professional level with a character. High tier's you cna become very good with in a little time, where as pichu would take forever to become good with, because of the fact he hurts himself and because of the fact that he dies easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQhXYuH9PM0
watch near the end of this video, pichu owns roy.
THE BEST WAY I CAN DESCRIBE MY OPINION ON THIS TOPIC IS QUOTED IN THE ORIGINAL POST OF THIS THREAD, basically tier=AMT of skill required in order to own with said character.
That's a FFA without teams and random people playing. You can hide and wait in FFAs and let them do plenty of damage while your safe(as Mewtwo did for most of the time. SHADOW BALL LAWL). I want a 1vs1 tournament match/professional friendlies.
Not to mention that was a horrible, horrible roy. He failed to tech all of his falls when it came down to 1vs1, had a horrible mind game,rolled to much, had about 80 damage more, ect.
And tiers are not just "the learning curve". Shiek is easier to learn than Fox, and yet Shiek is below him. I've recently picked up Pikachu and I've found him much easier to get good with than when I started playing Fox. And yet I have a horrible time playing with Marth.
But like you said, that is your opinion, and this is mine. And sorry for twisting your words. I was getting annoyed, and I usually intercourse up around then.
This could be a Serious Discussion thread :P
Quote from: Dawei on November 23, 2007, 06:34:49 PM
Quote from: evilflame101 on November 23, 2007, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: Dawei on November 23, 2007, 08:39:35 AM
As LemonMan said, becoming real good with Fox or Falco isn't a piece of cake. Yes, you don't have to have a ton of skill to win, but to use them well you do. If I found someone who used Bowser and they were really good, I doubt I could just hand them a controller with Fox and have him drillshining>waveshine infinite to shinespike. Same with getting a random kid to pillar with Falco.
And if it's all on potential, then why isn't GimpyFish winning tournaments all over the world? Because he uses Bowser, who isn't as good as Sheik for example. It's not only one or the other. You need a combination to become the best. The reason Pichu's aren't winning real big tournaments is because he is BAD compared to plenty of characters, not because "no1 has realizd his potntial or tayks tym 2 get gud with him". But if you can show me a video of a Pichu beating a good fox main/alternate (Ken, PC Chris, Mew2king, fastliketree, kdj, whatever), then I will believe you. Not a video of T0mmy beating some random kid at a tourney using Marth.
You basically took what i said and morphed it into your own thoughts... I said tiers are not how good someone is but how long it takes to reach there full potential, i am not saying that low tiers have higher potentials, because that would be a lie. the easiest way to put it, tiers are how long it takes to become professional level with a character. High tier's you cna become very good with in a little time, where as pichu would take forever to become good with, because of the fact he hurts himself and because of the fact that he dies easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQhXYuH9PM0
watch near the end of this video, pichu owns roy.
THE BEST WAY I CAN DESCRIBE MY OPINION ON THIS TOPIC IS QUOTED IN THE ORIGINAL POST OF THIS THREAD, basically tier=AMT of skill required in order to own with said character.
That's a FFA without teams and random people playing. You can hide and wait in FFAs and let them do plenty of damage while your safe(as Mewtwo did for most of the time. SHADOW BALL LAWL). I want a 1vs1 tournament match/professional friendlies.
Not to mention that was a horrible, horrible roy. He failed to tech all of his falls when it came down to 1vs1, had a horrible mind game,rolled to much, had about 80 damage more, ect.
And tiers are not just "the learning curve". Shiek is easier to learn than Fox, and yet Shiek is below him. I've recently picked up Pikachu and I've found him much easier to get good with than when I started playing Fox. And yet I have a horrible time playing with Marth.
But like you said, that is your opinion, and this is mine. And sorry for twisting your words. I was getting annoyed, and I usually f*** up around then.
you cant seem to grasp what im trying to say, im not trying to say that its necessarily how easy it is to learn a character but the ammount of effort taken to become very good or even just average. Falco you can just pick up and be decent with, where as someone with the same skill will just pick up bowser and fail horribly. The point is that it is not the character, it is the player, and tiers are just a "guideline" as to who is easier to play with, without any previous experience. but a low tier can easily beat a high tier if they have enough skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfhLEM-cHnw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfhLEM-cHnw)
a low tier can easily beat a high tier if they have enough skill, but if the high tier is equally skilled as the low tier, and it's not a case of the high tier having a weakness against the low tier, then the high tier is favored to win.
Can somebody explain me about the tier thingy?
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:35:11 PM
Can somebody explain me about the tier thingy?
a "so called" tier is the fact that characters are better than others...of course, i only think the skill of the player counts, and tiers are crappy ideas some1 came up with one day...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:36:19 PM
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:35:11 PM
Can somebody explain me about the tier thingy?
a "so called" tier is the fact that characters are better than others...of course, i only think the skill of the player counts, and tiers are crappy ideas some1 came up with one day...
Skill is the key to victory. :O
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:37:45 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:36:19 PM
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:35:11 PM
Can somebody explain me about the tier thingy?
a "so called" tier is the fact that characters are better than others...of course, i only think the skill of the player counts, and tiers are crappy ideas some1 came up with one day...
Skill is the key to victory. :O
99% of people would agree, including me...
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
exactly, and some people take it to be more than what it is. :P
The disparity between Fox and Pichu is huge.
well, the disparity between Fox and all characters is huge. it's just bigger the further you go down the list.
but with all the other characters, I really don't think that the differences are that big so to influence one's character choice. certainly doesn't influence mine.
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
Use Pichu, I dare you.
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
Use Pichu, I dare you.
I DOUBLE-DOG dare u to use him...
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 11:44:33 PM
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
Use Pichu, I dare you.
I DOUBLE-DOG dare u to use him...
Ok!
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 11:48:32 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 11:44:33 PM
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 23, 2007, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: thunderhero4 on November 23, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Quote from: Jono2 on November 23, 2007, 09:42:12 PM
the skill of the player is the deciding factor of matches, and it is usually the only deciding factor.
but when it comes down to the players having near equal skill level (and a high skill level, at that), that's where the tier list comes in. it's who is favored to win, not who will win. there are some characters that are higher up that have troubles with characters lower down (I think, but I can't name any of them). but it's a general list, summarazing the characters in the game from best to worst.
once again...skill could side this match, even with similar skill levels...
and I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the higher tiered character is favored to win, and would win if you ruled out human error.
i think the tier list would only apply in very very small places....or at least sounds like it...
Use Pichu, I dare you.
I DOUBLE-DOG dare u to use him...
Ok!
glad you see things my way... ;D