Let's Argue - Volume 1, Topic 2

[Wedge]

Please see the original post in order to view the new topic. Do not submit any more arguments or points for previous topics.

Thank you.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

If it oversimplifies the game or gives an unfair advantage over someone unable to do it. Or something along those lines.The glitches in RBY were cool because everyone could do them. As was the cloning glitch in GSC and the egg nature glitch in emerald and D/P. D/P tweaking is also an acceptable one.

So most glitches are perfectly fine because everyone can do them, and they don't break the game.

Some AR codes are acceptable because they just take away bullpoop from some dumb tasks like breeding for IVs. Those AR codes are usually:

IV checking code
Cloning code

because nobody cares if you clone, it's mainly used for trading anyway and IV checking is just a ninny that no one should have to spend too much time on.

[Kayo]

I see that obviously all anyone wants to do is twist my words around completely into something I never said at all, then instantly change the topic and whine for "no further posting about a previous topic" before I can even offer a rebuttal. My points were comlpletely valid, and since sometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong, then have to throw fits and "block" me from having a further say in a matter that SHOULD deserve more discussion.

On this topic, I have to say that you picked one of the worst thigs to discuss after coming down from Stealth Rock. So here's ALL i have to say here.

Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned. I mean, shiny pokemon have much less value now that it's easy to hack them. I, myself, have over 200 legit shinies (not all of which were caught myself) and the firest thing I hear after saying it is "OMG YOU HACKER" :| I have never hacked these shinies.

Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.

K, please don't make a mockery of this thread.

This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. I hardly see how I am making a "mockery of this thread" by simply stating my point. I guess since you didn't agree with my opinions, my input was invalid. You, sir, apparently never leard the meaning of the term "debate."

Stop using words like "HURR", at the very least in this thread, because they're tasteless, don't improve your argument, add nothing to the conversation, and make you look like an idiot. That being said, ":|" is not an adequate counterargument either.

I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.

If you're going to say something, back it up. Also, don't reword what people are saying because that often changes the meaning and you'll end up arguing with yourself.

I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

[So_So_Man]

Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned.

Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

So its perfectly fair that people in Canada should suffer and never have the opportunity to get event only Pokemon, like Arceus, because of kind, duplicating, strangers, while you can duplicate your TMs all you want just so you can have the same move on all your Pokemon?

[Neerb]

In my personal opinion, I believe that manipulating the game is fine as long as you don't alter the game. Allow me to explain:
When you clone a pokemon, generally done via Wi-Fi or Emerald glitch, you are making a double of a pre-existing pokemon; you are taking the 100% exact same data that already exists and copy-pasting it to another spot on your team/box. This, cloning, I consider perfectly fine, as you aren't necessarily changing how the game works; rather, you are simply making a back-up copy of something that the game has already allowed perfectly. In fact, clones could be considered just as legitimate as the real thing, since, in a way, they actually ARE the real thing. The concept goes for using hacks to make more TMs: you aren't doing anything the game would normally prohibit, you are simply manipulating the game to make move assignments easier.
Now, what I call altering is a tad different; this is where you do things that the game does not normally permit. For example, giving pokemon stats/moves/level-ups directly through cheating devices, as opposed to real items created artificially, can result in creating a pokemon that shouldn't truly exist, with stats and moves that should exist within that species, IV set, or nature. THAT, is "cheating," and as such I do not condone the spontaneous creation of pokemon like I do the cloning of pokemon.

Further more, I would just like to point out that when it comes to certain aspects of changing the game, you should take into account other trainers. Changing the game so that you can have an all-shiny team might seem okay at the time, since you're just changing your team color so you personally think it looks cooler. You might also want to give yourself a couple of cheat-generated lv100s so you can beat that last boss in your game. However, when you start trying to trade out these phony shinies for other people's legitimately earned pokemon without their knowledge, or challenge someone else's legitimately trained team using your hacked Garchomps, then you've definitely crossed the line.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

Wedge, this is a dumb topic. Nobody is pro-hacking.

[BAW BAW BAW]

Of course, anything that was not intended to be in the game that gives unfair advantages should be banned. I mean, shiny pokemon have much less value now that it's easy to hack them. I, myself, have over 200 legit shinies (not all of which were caught myself) and the [first] thing I hear after saying it is "OMG YOU HACKER" :| I have never hacked these shinies.

how is that relevant. Shinies aren't an advantage as much as it is fun for collectors.

Now allow me to contradict myself with an example of the only hack I have ever used. TMs. Some of them, there's only one in the game. I hardly find that fair. That's why I'm all for using the cheat that allows you to have multiple copies of TMs. This way, I can't just use moves like Earthquake or Energy Ball once, which would severely hurt my battling.

Just a time save, I can agree with this.

And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.
This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. BAW BAW BAW.

It's the self righteous "I KNOW EVERYTHING" attitude with nothing to back it up to be brutally honest.

I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.
I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

A.) we don't know you, so we're not as initially accepting as people who do know you.
B.) the HURRS and DURRS add to the "I"M ALWAYS RIGHT" think mentioned before. They're not funny, they're not insulting, they're just annoying because it shows that you refuse to consider other arguments.
C.) All the backing up can't do much of anything if you're wrong. Just know that.
D.) We're not making a big fuss.

Sorry we hurt your feelings

[Wedge]

I see that obviously all anyone wants to do is twist my words around completely into something I never said at all, then instantly change the topic and whine for "no further posting about a previous topic" before I can even offer a rebuttal. My points were comlpletely valid, and since sometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong, then have to throw fits and "block" me from having a further say in a matter that SHOULD deserve more discussion.

And now, some responses that technically don't have to do with previous topics.

Buddy, the only one twisting people's words around here is you. Take a close look at the dates of the posts. I made the change of topic post a full two days after the last post had been made, meaning that the topic had been dead for a while. Your next post was a full four days after my post in the previous topic, so you can't really accuse me of "instantly changing the topic". Try again.

You seem to be the only person to think you have valid points, so maybe you should consider the possibility that they might not be. You also seem to be the only person around here throwing a fit, so I'm going to have to ask you to desist.

sometimes people are too afraid to admit that they're wrong

I can see. Would you like some assistance with that?

This is America. I am allowed my freedom of speech. I hardly see how I am making a "mockery of this thread" by simply stating my point. I guess since you didn't agree with my opinions, my input was invalid. You, sir, apparently never leard the meaning of the term "debate."

No, this is actually an international internet forum and in no way are you guaranteed the right of freedom of speech. You are making a mockery of this thread by making points that are not well researched, lacking in evidence, contrary to previously presented facts, and most importantly, not thinking logically or rationally about the points that you make. I don't agree with your method of arguing because it is ineffective and baseless. If you have something to say, back it up. As an example of you using nothing but conjecture, I will use your next statement.

I didn't think this had to be COMPLETELY serious. If you knew me, you'd know that I like to have a sense of humor. No matter how serious I can be, I know when to have fun. If you'd like me to be 100% serious, calmly tell me. I'll gladly listen, just man up and ask me to be serious instead of whining about it.

I'm not quite sure how much more clearly I can state this, as it is stated rather bluntly in the first rule of this thread, but nevertheless, I shall try again.

Please be COMPLETELY serious.

If you can inject humor into your statements without sacrificing your argument, by all means, please do so, but please be tasteful and use it appropriately.

Call it what you will, but if you are going to post in my thread, I ask that you follow my rules and be serious.

I have always, to my knowledge, backed up any opinion I had. If it was ever unclear at any point, again please calmly tell me so that I may elaborate. No need to make a big fuss. As for that second part, I never did that. That's what all you are doing with my opinions, in which case ruins the entire point I had in mind.

Here's an example:

Since the metagame is already intercourse ed up, I say if I have to waste a moveslot for Rapid Spin, you have to waste one for Aromatherapy. it's only fair.

This is a rather poor argument because you are not being forced to use a moveslot for Rapid Spin and comparing sleep to Stealth Rock doesn't quite work.

I suppose you want to twist THESE words around too.

I you want suppose THESE too around twist words to.

[Kayo]

Buddy, the only one twisting people's words around here is you. Take a close look at the dates of the posts. I made the change of topic post a full two days after the last post had been made, meaning that the topic had been dead for a while. Your next post was a full four days after my post in the previous topic, so you can't really accuse me of "instantly changing the topic". Try again.

Well excuse me for having a life and being away from a computer for 4 days. I couldn't help being busy :|

You seem to be the only person to think you have valid points, so maybe you should consider the possibility that they might not be. You also seem to be the only person around here throwing a fit, so I'm going to have to ask you to desist.

I'll consider that once you consider the fact that I might have a reason here. I might have a point I'm trying to make, but obviously you're too blind to even look far enough to see it. Also, "throwing a fit" .. i'd say i'm acting pretty mature with my debates, but if you think I'm acting a bit moody, blame the depression meds I'm no longer taking. I get pretty irritable without them.

No, this is actually an international internet forum and in no way are you guaranteed the right of freedom of speech. You are making a mockery of this thread by making points that are not well researched, lacking in evidence, contrary to previously presented facts, and most importantly, not thinking logically or rationally about the points that you make. I don't agree with your method of arguing because it is ineffective and baseless. If you have something to say, back it up. As an example of you using nothing but conjecture, I will use your next statement.

This is a debate thread and I am certainly guaranteed my right to an opinion. And I hardly see how adding my opinion can "make a mockery of this thread." You want evidence? Just say so. I'll give you your darn evidence. Whenever I have something to say, I wait for opinions before backing things up. It's how I argue, and I'm not one to throw out heaps of information before stating my topic. Maybe you can only handle your own form of arguing. I must have over-estimated your capability of debating. Sorry.

I'm not quite sure how much more clearly I can state this, as it is stated rather bluntly in the first rule of this thread, but nevertheless, I shall try again.

Please be COMPLETELY serious.

Well, in a board like this, saying to be "completely serious" means to be MOSTLY serious. I can forgive you for this since you don't post here much, but I'd just like you to know that this is NSFCD. You can hardly ever find complete seriousness here.

If you can inject humor into your statements without sacrificing your argument, by all means, please do so, but please be tasteful and use it appropriately.

God I love contradictions. Yes, we'll be completely serious, but by all means inject humor into our statements. THAT'S WHAT I WAS DOING.

Call it what you will, but if you are going to post in my thread, I ask that you follow my rules and be serious.

You aren't in complete control just because you started a thread. Sorry, but no. You aren't. We all have our rights here. Or i can make my own thread. Would you prefer that?

This is a rather poor argument because you are not being forced to use a moveslot for Rapid Spin and comparing sleep to Stealth Rock doesn't quite work.

I thought we said that topic was dead. BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES MUCH.

I you want suppose THESE too around twist words to.

Right darn that I you're to want. Actually, no. I believe I know exactly what you're saying. Also, you're absolutely hilarious. :|

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

This is stupid, you guys are stupid

[Zero]

I am an avid user of Pokesav, you know, the pokemon hacking tool. However, I only use pokemon with legal abilities, stats, moves, PP, and I try to use reasonable IV's except for the two or three pokemon that I have where I actually breeded for near perfect IV's. Any pokemon I use, I assure you is completely within its natural limitations. After all, if you win through cheating you aren't winning at all.

It's a wonderful program that saves an incredible amount of time and that's my primary motivation for using it.

All of that being said I support hacking as long as you don't use it to alter a Pokemon's limitations for competitive use. If you want to make a Wonder Guard Light Ball Exploding Pikachu or a Wonder Guard Garchomp with 999 in every stat then by all means do so, just don't use them for competitive play.

[Kayo]

I am an avid user of Pokesav, you know, the pokemon hacking tool. However, I only use pokemon with legal abilities, stats, moves, PP, and I try to use reasonable IV's except for the two or three pokemon that I have where I actually breeded for near perfect IV's. Any pokemon I use, I assure you is completely within its natural limitations. After all, if you win through cheating you aren't winning at all.

It's a wonderful program that saves an incredible amount of time and that's my primary motivation for using it.

All of that being said I support hacking as long as you don't use it to alter a Pokemon's limitations for competitive use. If you want to make a Wonder Guard Light Ball Exploding Pikachu or a Wonder Guard Garchomp with 999 in every stat then by all means do so, just don't use them for competitive play.

That's my opinion. I do not use pokesav however, since i think it's unfair in competitive play. Hackers who use it can get good pokemon much easier than non-hackers can. its unfair.

however, hacking for private use is ok. i have an extra copy of FireRed that it completely hacked up. fun to play with. =P

[Zero]

That's my opinion. I do not use pokesav however, since i think it's unfair in competitive play. Hackers who use it can get good pokemon much easier than non-hackers can. its unfair.

however, hacking for private use is ok. i have an extra copy of FireRed that it completely hacked up. fun to play with. =P

It's unfair that I took the necessary precautions to gain the same pokemon in 30 seconds that it took a guy that spent days/weeks breeding and raising for the right IV's, nature, etc. to get? That isn't unfair. That's just being smart. Why waste all the effort and time when you can spend about 5 minutes or less making a legitimate team within natural limitations? Pokesav is incredibly easy to use and incredibly easy to gain access to, so the only excuse other than "I haz no internetz" is that you enjoy slaving away at the game, which is fine as long as you don't try to criticize others for using the program. Not everyone has the weeks to spend that it sometimes takes to get a right natured, good IV'd pokemon with the right moves.

The only reason I can think of as to why anyone would think using the program to create what are essentionally legitimate pokemon "unfair" is that the users saved time and the non-users didn't, which is either jealousy or just plain faggotry.

My argument is all about efficiency really. My oppurtunity costs for slaving away trying to get good pokemon are dramatically high, reducing those costs are a dire need, because I still want good pokemon and I still want to play competitively(though right now I've withdrawn from the current metagame because of how gay it is, obviously temporary), but I still have obligations and many other things to do that are far more important.

Again, as long as you don't mess with a Pokemon's natural limitations it shouldn't be an issue.

[Drezford_the_Rebell]

It's unfair that I took the necessary precautions to gain the same pokemon in 30 seconds that it took a guy that spent days/weeks breeding and raising for the right IV's, nature, etc. to get? That isn't unfair. That's just being smart. Why waste all the effort and time when you can spend about 5 minutes or less making a legitimate team within natural limitations? Pokesav is incredibly easy to use and incredibly easy to gain access to, so the only excuse other than "I haz no internetz" is that you enjoy slaving away at the game, which is fine as long as you don't try to criticize others for using the program. Not everyone has the weeks to spend that it sometimes takes to get a right natured, good IV'd pokemon with the right moves.

The only reason I can think of as to why anyone would think using the program to create what are essentionally legitimate pokemon "unfair" is that the users saved time and the non-users didn't, which is either jealousy or just plain faggotry.

My argument is all about efficiency really. My oppurtunity costs for slaving away trying to get good pokemon are dramatically high, reducing those costs are a dire need, because I still want good pokemon and I still want to play competitively(though right now I've withdrawn from the current metagame because of how gay it is, obviously temporary), but I still have obligations and many other things to do that are far more important.

Again, as long as you don't mess with a Pokemon's natural limitations it shouldn't be an issue.

Finally some credible argument [I am writing this 3 sentence into to Zero's very very important point].
This raises the question: To what extent is something unfair? Because everything is accessible to everyone, right? And to what point is something unfair being abused given it was unfair in the first place?

Finally some intelligence in this thread.