Evolution

[Macawmoses]

I had the privilege of attending a wonderful lecture on evolution today. It was presented by one Dr. Prothero, of California (LA, iirc).

Anyways, he addressed numerous topics, and was quick to jump on the wonderful wagon of attacking Creationists - okay, not all, as he is one, but he did go after some.

Some minor, yet very important points he dredged up:

1. Science (and evolution) is not Atheistic.
2. Science pertains to falsification, opposed to verification.
=>ie. If you say all swans are white, it would be proven false by a black swan existing. A brief elaboration by...Wiki
3.  So called "Missing Links" exist, but clearly, not all can nor will be found.

The discussion moved on to Young Earth Creationism...which is the Earth being 10,000 years old at most, made in a period of 6 days. We discussed how the fossil record clearly proves otherwise, and ended it there.

We then progressed on to something more of you will be familiar with:



Intelligent Design. This is the belief that with advanced structures (and effectively beauty), only something highly intelligent could have created such things as life. The analogy is that if you find a watch on the beach, a designer (watchmaker) had to have created it - it doesn't just magically shape itself. The premise is that without saying which God(s) created this life, it should be allowed in schools. If not...



He proceeded to tell us how many of the ID followers (and higher ups) are indeed Doctors, however their PhD's come from other fields; Religion, Chemistry, Education, and not Geology or Biology. He proved it with samples from previous debates and presentations from these Creationists (note: this is addressed at the particular sect, not Creationists in general) that were embarrassing, at best.

"Kiddie books" and Wikipedia are where they get their information was a rather bold claim. With "hoaxes" like Nebraska Man or a general lack of evidence, perhaps the fossil record was clearly wrong, and Flood Geology is far more likely.



Of course, prove from the Grand Canyon showed a pattern => Dinosaurs on one layer, shelled creatures on the next, dinosaurs, shelled, etc. Not a proof, mind you, merely falsifying the Flood Geology. Then what about missing links? We've found several, such as The Great Canadian Example - Tiktaalik, or others such as an example close to our hosts heart, the Frogamander.

So, maybe these do exist? Just maybe. How can we explain Chimps being around when humans are? If evolution were real, then the species branched off of must become extinct. His explanation was simple - when one is born, do their parents automatically die off? No.



This lecture went on and on, using examples like the Walrus. The simple fact, for me, is that I really bought into it more than I thought it would. I support evolution, but I am still Creationist in a sense.

It brings up so many possible topics, though. Our Q+A addressed several, but I'd like to wait for discussion here.

1. Canada ranks far better on the scales of Science Literacy than the US (which ranks near the bottom, with Turkey). Why is this?
2. Do you believe in Evolution or Creationism?
3. Can the two co-exist?
4. Are "Missing Links" truly needed to have an understanding of evolution?
5. Should schools teach both?

And so much more.

[Mario64]

poppycock...

[Level_9_Chao]

Evolutionist here. My school teaches only evolution, cuz like it was stated, i gives us the facts before any conclusions, so to be taught in a science class, it's a better example of reinforcing the scientific method.

[britneymahboy]

1. Canada ranks far better on the scales of Science Literacy than the US (which ranks near the bottom, with Turkey). Why is this?
I don't really know.  Don't really care to tell you the truth.

2. Do you believe in Evolution or Creationism?
Evolution.  Creationism has been proven false many time over. 

3. Can the two co-exist?
No: they are complete opposites.  Creationism says that the God created everything as it is now and that nothing ever changes; Evolution says that we are constantly changing thanks to factors such as stress, predators, food supply, genes, and many others.

4. Are "Missing Links" truly needed to have an understanding of evolution?
I wouldn't know.  My opinion is ambivalent.

5. Should schools teach both?
As a required course? No.  And neither should it be a course that can be taken instead of a real class.  It could be an optional course. 

[HTA!]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

[Doodle]

1. Canada ranks far better on the scales of Science Literacy than the US (which ranks near the bottom, with Turkey). Why is this?
I'm not sure about that one.
2. Do you believe in Evolution or Creationism?
I used to believe in Creationism. But I think I believe in Evolution now. As I grew older, I wondered how things could just "magically" happen, and started buying into the things that can actually be proven.
3. Can the two co-exist?
Not really. They are polar opposites, like britney said.
4. Are "Missing Links" truly needed to have an understanding of evolution?
Not necessarily, but it would definitely help it's cause and give us more information.
5. Should schools teach both?
No. Schools should just teach evolution, like they are already. If you want to learn about creationism, go to a church. They shouldn't be together, because they're opposites. They don't mix well.

[britneymahboy]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

[PsychoYoshi]

One of the best primers on the subject of religion vs. atheism that I've ever read, though not perfectly on-topic.

And it's just an op-ed, too.

Also, inb4 certain Canadian users tell us that we're all delusional for believing in any kind of spirituality.

[jnfs2014]

1. USA is stupid.
2. Creationist.
3. No.
4. Not really, although no one can be an "expert" on the subject unless there was not any.
5. Absolutely.

[PsychoYoshi]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

What created the first rule of thermodynamics?

[Gwen Khan]

1. Canada ranks far better on the scales of Science Literacy than the US (which ranks near the bottom, with Turkey). Why is this?
don't know
2. Do you believe in Evolution or Creationism?
Evolution
3. Can the two co-exist?
can they? no, should they? yes
4. Are "Missing Links" truly needed to have an understanding of evolution?
only for Creationist, and no matter how many we find they will still want more
5. Should schools teach both?
no Evolution only

[britneymahboy]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

What created the first rule of thermodynamics?

It is like a side-effect of the forces dominating the Universe.  But, yeah, that question was pointless.  It didn't prove his point anymore pertinent

[PsychoYoshi]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

What created the first rule of thermodynamics?

It is like a side-effect of the forces dominating the Universe.  But, yeah, that question was pointless.  It didn't prove his point anymore pertinent

It wasn't designed to prove his point, it was designed to expose your logical fallacy and deconstruct your point.

I could then ask you what created the forces that hold up the laws of thermodynamics, and you'd be unable to answer that couched in logical terms and would be forced to say "they simply exist", which is the exact argument that any religious person would use about a higher power. Problem is that if you magnify science to a certain level, its rationalizations for things break down, and at that level it is arguably no better than religion at explaining things.

[HTA!]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

What created the first rule of thermodynamics?

It is like a side-effect of the forces dominating the Universe.  But, yeah, that question was pointless.  It didn't prove his point anymore pertinent

It wasn't designed to prove his point, it was designed to expose your logical fallacy.

I could then ask you what created the forces that hold up the laws of thermodynamics, and you'd be unable to answer that couched in logical terms and would be forced to say "they simply exist", which is the exact argument that any religious person would use about a higher power. Problem is that if you magnify science to a certain level, its rationalizations for things break down, and at that level it is arguably no better than religion at explaining things.

Quantum Mechanics = God
... :P

I'm not some crazy religious zealot either.
The exact laws that science says govern our universe are so crazy it almost sounds like science fiction.

The truth is, we will almost never be able to understand what makes our universe tick at the most basic levels.
So, its not totally illogical to think that, "Hey, something might have caused this that we can't understand."

We can't even determine where an electron is in space... science has a long way to go.

[britneymahboy]

I believe that God created the Universe via the Big Bang, be it from a previous universal crunch, other dimension, or what have you; the universe is in too perfect an order for it to all be cosmological chance. Energy cannot be created out of nowhere, so somehow, somewhere, something had to have created the energy that fuels our reality.

Evolution should be taught in tandem with this concept, for the proof behind it is so overwhelming it is basically fact.

tl;dr- God created evolution (in a sense, I don't think he simply said "boom let there be evolution)

What created God? Energy cannot be created out of nowhere.

What created the first rule of thermodynamics?

It is like a side-effect of the forces dominating the Universe.  But, yeah, that question was pointless.  It didn't prove his point anymore pertinent

It wasn't designed to prove his point, it was designed to expose your logical fallacy and deconstruct your point.

I could then ask you what created the forces that hold up the laws of thermodynamics, and you'd be unable to answer that couched in logical terms and would be forced to say "they simply exist", which is the exact argument that any religious person would use about a higher power. Problem is that if you magnify science to a certain level, its rationalizations for things break down, and at that level it is arguably no better than religion at explaining things.

Oh, sir! what was furthest from my mind when I said that comment.  You assume too much about such a diminutive comment. In fact, if you read again, you'll see that your point and mine are the same.  He says that the Universe had to come from somewhere, and he thinks it only logical that that somewhere is God; I ask the same question posed to the Universe to God's existance, knowing that we don't know how the Universe really got started, to show how illogical his proposition was.  I found it very disagreeable and ornery of you to say something like my logic had a fault when you were merely assumingmy point of view.  It was also sad to make you think you could somehow deconstruct a point that was all but in your head.  Also, the forces of thermodynamics, to my understanding, are created by the intermolecular forces between particles, electrons, atomic size, and other factors that I've yet to learn--I imagine. I mean, you could definitely go deeper into it, but I think both of us rather not.