Original post. (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028)
After a full spring and summer of competition, the SBR felt as though it was time to take the first stab at a tier list for Brawl. Before I post it, let me remind you all of a few important things:
1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.
2. Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures somethingd different than those things.
3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.
4. This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change.
5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.
6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.
And without further ado, I present to you the official SBR Brawl Tier List (v1.0):
Top
Metaknight
Snake
King DDD
Mr G&W
Falco
ROB
High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy
Pikachu
IC
Kirby
Pit
Wolf
Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zamus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Shiek
Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon
Have a field day, kids. You get a bit to discuss it, but then I'm locking it and probably deleting most of what you say.
Of course, when I say "have a field day" it means discuss the tier list. Power on is for other things.
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
Considering how Wario can now be infinited by 8 characters, I think he's a little too high on the list (and I main him). Yeah, I understand that Futile has been cleaning house since Brawl was released but...
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
What about Mario's?
Bowser is much higher than I though he would be... and Sonic is much lower :P
I think Diddy will rise in the future :D
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
What about Mario's?
His recovery is even worse, not to mention he has really poor range.
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
Meteor Smash, Spike. w/e
ZSS's down special (flip jump thing) attack is a very powerful spike, on computers at least -_-
*Prepares for daily questions*
Reasons of why Falco is at the top?
I think ROB's a little too high too considering how he's been steadily falling in rank since about June. Poor Mario... if only Boss and Fear weren't the only pros representing him...
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:17:37 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
Meteor Smash, Spike. w/e
ZSS's down special (flip jump thing) attack is a very powerful spike, on computers at least -_-
And she is one of the lightest characters in the game with few killing moves and a extremely poopty recovery.
@chris;Chaingrab, lasers, spike, killing, decent recovery (especially once you learn the curved Firebird), and some good combos puts him there. I'm not the falco expert, but those are the first things that come to mind.
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
What about Mario's?
His recovery is even worse, not to mention he has really poor range.
Lots of people say Luigi's recovery is worse than Mario's because he only goes straight up in the air.
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:24:33 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
What about Mario's?
His recovery is even worse, not to mention he has really poor range.
Lots of people say Luigi's recovery is worse than Mario's because he only goes straight up in the air.
That was melee. Luigi's recovery is 1092348239048x better in brawl than Mario's. Rocket, tornado, AND Up b is insane.
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:24:33 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:16:40 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on September 01, 2008, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 01, 2008, 03:13:42 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on September 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM
Anybody with a MSmash that can kill at 35% deserves a higher spot than middle, don't ya think?
Although that MSmash is very hard to time and space right, and I've never done it less than 75% on a human before. :'(
go zamus
...MSmash?
And assuming you mean Ike, no he doesn't. He's slow, he's punishable, and his recovery is god awful. Just camp him for a nice win.
What about Mario's?
His recovery is even worse, not to mention he has really poor range.
Lots of people say Luigi's recovery is worse than Mario's because he only goes straight up in the air.
That was melee. Luigi's recovery is 1092348239048x better in brawl than Mario's. Rocket, tornado, AND Up b is insane.
I almost forgot Luigi's Green Missile doesn't put him in that freefall mode. The main thing I think that's best about Luigi is his flaming Jump Punch. Also I forgot that combining both his Tornado and Jump Punch increases the height of his recovery. :P
ROB seems high in my books, his overall Meta evolved real slow.
everything is 100% correct.
Toon Link at middle surprised me.
I would have thought he would have been higher.
How'd he end up so low?
Quote from: Java_Java on September 01, 2008, 04:46:18 PM
Toon Link at middle surprised me.
I would have thought he would have been higher.
How'd he end up so low?
Good on paper, average in actual playing.
Ha, I knew Rob was great. Of course Overswarm really put him up there on the list.
Where's the link to this by the way? There's nothing on SWF about it and I'm sure this would have been made as an announcment today.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028
Added to first post.
Captain Falcon is the bottom character... Dx lol, I'll have to save him.
Honestly, I love the fast paced fighting with him, but I have to admit range is a killer for him... any char without a projectile automatically loses a tier of potential, haha
People really do need to give Yoshi a try, I know he probably isn't the best, but if you get good and learn stuff, I'm pretty sure he could probably move up 1 or 2+ places in the tier.
I seriously hate the tier list with every fiber of my being.
I can beat anyone with Fire Luigi. I know his moves inside and out.
I can also beat anyone with MetaKnight.
And as long as it's 1-on-1, I can beat anyone with Bowser.
The big man has trouble in 4 way free-for-alls, though.
Quote from: TimeMage on September 02, 2008, 05:33:07 AM
I seriously hate the tier list with every fiber of my being.
I can beat anyone with Fire Luigi. I know his moves inside and out.
I can also beat anyone with MetaKnight.
And as long as it's 1-on-1, I can beat anyone with Bowser.
The big man has trouble in 4 way free-for-alls, though.
I suggest you read the big paragraphs at the top of first post.
Sorry forgot to put in:
'I need to do something. Luigi needs to be much higher on the tier list.
At least MetaKnight is up there.'
...In my post.
At least Metaknight is up there? Are you serious? *turns aside* Is he serious? You're suprized that a character that has 80/20-70/30 match ups against like 70% of the cast, 60/40 against probably 25% and the rest are even except for one counter (Snake) who is now being heavily debated is "up there?" You don't even have to be in competitive smashing to know that Metaknight is retardedly good.
Quote from: TimeMage on September 02, 2008, 05:33:07 AM
I seriously hate the tier list with every fiber of my being.
I can beat anyone with Fire Luigi. I know his moves inside and out.
I can also beat anyone with MetaKnight.
And as long as it's 1-on-1, I can beat anyone with Bowser.
The big man has trouble in 4 way free-for-alls, though.
I'd like to challenge your fire luigi sometime =]
metaknight however is a jewbagel
and we gotta 1v1 BOOOOOSER as well
"You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change."
Yeah right. :(
Not to say this was surprising, M2K and Chillin had it right weeks ago.
Tink, Mario, PT, and a few others irked me a bit.... but any argument that could be made would only raise them 2-3 spots if even that.
DDD still perplexes me, but I know absolutely nil about his meta game so I'm gonna go ahead and assume it the beastly chain-grab and projectile blocking F-tilt.
I'll go on record saying Wario got slighted, but who knows how it will turn out in the months to come?
What the intercourse peach in middle?
I had higher hopes for her. ;-;
Quote from: Fatmanonice on September 02, 2008, 10:08:50 AM
At least Metaknight is up there? Are you serious? *turns aside* Is he serious? You're suprized that a character that has 80/20-70/30 match ups against like 70% of the cast, 60/40 against probably 25% and the rest are even except for one counter (Snake) who is now being heavily debated is "up there?" You don't even have to be in competitive smashing to know that Metaknight is retardedly good.
According to the MK matchup thread, his worst mathups are Diddy, Snake, and Yoshi, all at 55-45 in his favor. So basically he has no counter.
And HTA, Wario hardly is underrated (assuming I'm not intercourse ing english up). Over powered grab release, anyone?
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on September 02, 2008, 01:38:08 PM
"You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change."
Yeah right. :(
Not to say this was surprising, M2K and Chillin had it right weeks ago.
Tink, Mario, PT, and a few others irked me a bit.... but any argument that could be made would only raise them 2-3 spots if even that.
DDD still perplexes me, but I know absolutely nil about his meta game so I'm gonna go ahead and assume it the beastly chain-grab and projectile blocking F-tilt.
I'll go on record saying Wario got slighted, but who knows how it will turn out in the months to come?
What the intercourse peach in middle?
I had higher hopes for her. ;-;
Toon Link seems about right. Mario does bug me because he's one of the few characters would can still easily string attacks together, has an above average gimping game, doesn't have any glaring weaknesses except for his range, great approaches (SH Fireball + anything= sex on toast) and a decent amount of technical prowess too thanks to the cape and FLUDD. The main problem is that hardly anyone uses him so his potential is barely known. Pokemon Trainer seems about right. If it was just Charizard (essentially a flying Bowser), he'd probably be mid of middle tier but Squirtle and Ivysaur plus the forced switching upon dying and fatique really drag him down.
You should be happy about Peach's placement considering how for like the first three months the game was out it was widely agreed she was low tier.
Quote from: Dawei on September 02, 2008, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Fatmanonice on September 02, 2008, 10:08:50 AM
At least Metaknight is up there? Are you serious? *turns aside* Is he serious? You're suprized that a character that has 80/20-70/30 match ups against like 70% of the cast, 60/40 against probably 25% and the rest are even except for one counter (Snake) who is now being heavily debated is "up there?" You don't even have to be in competitive smashing to know that Metaknight is retardedly good.
According to the MK matchup thread, his worst mathups are Diddy, Snake, and Yoshi, all at 55-45 in his favor. So basically he has no counter.
And HTA, Wario hardly is underrated (assuming I'm not f***ing english up). Over powered grab release, anyone?
s*** read his placement wrong.
Forget it, Wario rapes.
@FMOI
Eh, "some faggot" had her waaaaay higher so I assumed I just hadn't seen her M-game completely formed yet.
Yeah my hopes for PT were mainly reliant on Charizard... but now that you mention is Squirtle and Ivysuar just hold him back. D:
Tink is just as Dawei said... good on paper not in action.
But still it seems kind of low... but I'm not one to argue with the list after SBR had its time with it. D:
Guys, try to keep up.
M2K DID NOT make that tier list. It was Chillindude and some guy named Travis
Quote from: Dawei on September 02, 2008, 03:07:17 PM
Guys, try to keep up.
M2K DID NOT make that tier list. It was Chillindude and some guy named Travis
lol owned :(
Link :| :| :|
I'm surpised with a few... Especially Dedede. I played with him for awhile, and found the Godliness of his Back Aerial, but I dropped him for some reason... I think it was because I never really liked fat penguins :| :| :|
I see nothing too surprising, and this one actually seems to give yoshi more room than most others, he's 2 or 3 spots higher than most. I think this list will change a lot by the end of Brawl's run. hm, if there was a bottom tier Yoshi may not be in it XD. I think a few of the middle-low tier characters seem a little bit higher than they should be, but other than that this one looks legit.
Things like these always confuse me.
For the first few months didn't everyone think Charizard sucked and Squirtle was good?
Quote from: Java_Java on September 02, 2008, 09:37:30 PM
Things like these always confuse me.
For the first few months didn't everyone think Charizard sucked and Squirtle was good?
Yeah but it's now agreed that Squirtle is basically only good against Captain Falcon (because nearly everyone counters CF), Fox (pseudo utilt lock), Wolf (pseudo utilt lock), and Ness (semi grab and release infinite).
I'm suprised that ike is middle. :P
I should start playing as DDD....
Guys, I think you need to read, of course the tier list will change. If one would have been made at month one, it'd be topsy turvy compared to today. Some things (like MK's high placement) I can't see changing, but as Meta Game is developed, and the game exploited, we could see some major shake ups, much like Melee.
Quote from: Triforceman22 on September 06, 2008, 08:26:04 AM
I'm suprised that ike is middle. :P
I should start playing as DDD....
Ike will definately drop. A lot of pros have dropped him, including Azen, because his metagame was incredibly shallow and he's pretty much viewed as the "nOOb slayer." He also has really craptastic matchups against most of the high characters (as does Bowser...) so he will more than likely fall to low tier by the end of the year.
Melee Link would've been higher than Brawl Link.
Quote from: ninja on September 02, 2008, 01:20:36 PM
I'd like to challenge your fire luigi sometime =]
metaknight however is a jewbagel
and we gotta 1v1 BOOOOOSER as well
Well I like to choose a top for every class.
Middleweight - Fire Luigi
Lightweight - White MetaKnight
Heavyweight - Dark Bowser
God I wish I had Wi-Fi!
Of everyone in town and on the internets, DocNess is the only person who gives me a real challenge.
Woot 1st tier list is out.
I knew Falcon fell but wow I didn't think he dropped that far X_X
I think Mega and Snake are sticking to the top two unless something drastic comes along to change things. In all honesty I'm surprised that DDD and Gameandwatch are so high. Either I just play really bad guys or my Sonic for just some reason beats those two XD
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
So can Wario :P
Quote from: Cornwad on September 08, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
So can Wario :P
At least he has upside unlike Lucas...
great arial movement and the bike recovery automatically make him better X_X;;
Quote from: Cornwad on September 08, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
So can Wario :P
You ever watch Futile?
It doesn't matter. >_>
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: Cornwad on September 08, 2008, 03:49:12 PM
Quote from: Hector_the_Axe on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
So can Wario :P
You ever watch Futile?
It doesn't matter. >_>
Man I hate playing Wario. There is no way in hell that a fat man should be that agile in the air.
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Except for the fact that EVERY character has a chain and Ness and Lucas.
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Except for the fact that EVERY character has a chain and Ness and Lucas.
Well yeah but there are chains that are better than others and there are some tournies that don't allow chains for some strange reason.
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Except for the fact that EVERY character has a chain and Ness and Lucas.
Well yeah but there are chains that are better than others and there are some tournies that don't allow chains for some strange reason.
But they all have chains and they still all get raped. And those tournies are online ones that suck ass.
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:25:58 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Except for the fact that EVERY character has a chain and Ness and Lucas.
Well yeah but there are chains that are better than others and there are some tournies that don't allow chains for some strange reason.
But they all have chains and they still all get raped. And those tournies are online ones that suck ass.
Doesn't Texas block things like that too?
I think I heard that somewhere...
Quote from: Cornwad on September 09, 2008, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:25:58 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: Dawei on September 09, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
Quote from: Ridley on September 09, 2008, 12:36:40 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 09, 2008, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: HTA on September 08, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
Quote from: Shujinco on September 08, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
I'm surprised. G&W is top? Wow. :D
I'm also surprised by Lucas being Bottom. :-\
Seeing as Lucas can be infinite'd with ease... its no big surprise
Oh, see, I didn't know that! :O
Crap, now I gotta change my game! >:(
Well on final destination (Or any flat stage without a wall), if the character your playing doesn't have a chain then you can use him.
Except for the fact that EVERY character has a chain and Ness and Lucas.
Well yeah but there are chains that are better than others and there are some tournies that don't allow chains for some strange reason.
But they all have chains and they still all get raped. And those tournies are online ones that suck ass.
Doesn't Texas block things like that too?
I think I heard that somewhere...
You heard wrong.
I chained two of Mario's U-tilts, olol disqualified.
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
It's my job to bring Lucas' greatness back again!
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
and their recoveries are still ridiculously easy to kill themselves.
Underneath a stage they are SCREWED and you can still be an ass and jump in front of Ness's up B X_X;;
Quote from: Nayrman on September 09, 2008, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
and their recoveries are still ridiculously easy to kill themselves.
Underneath a stage they are SCREWED and you can still be an ass and jump in front of Ness's up B X_X;;
Which could possibly screw you over if your recovery sucks enough.
Once you get the hang of PK Thunder, it isn't that hard to recover. Why you would be under the stage is beyond me :P
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:50:31 PM
Quote from: Nayrman on September 09, 2008, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
and their recoveries are still ridiculously easy to kill themselves.
Underneath a stage they are SCREWED and you can still be an ass and jump in front of Ness's up B X_X;;
Which could possibly screw you over if your recovery sucks enough.
Once you get the hang of PK Thunder, it isn't that hard to recover. Why you would be under the stage is beyond me :P
He may have a reason, give me an example of how Ness or Lucas got under the stage Nayrman.
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
Bowser is actually pretty good if you devote your life to him and you don't come up against Dedede :P
The one thing that really annoys me is how high Ike is :D
Oh, and PK Thunder really isn't a good recovery. I love to spike people when they're using it though ;D
@Wiiboychris:
Because DK reverse cargo threw them under FD at less than 50% :P
Quote from: wiiboychris on September 09, 2008, 05:52:32 PM
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:50:31 PM
Quote from: Nayrman on September 09, 2008, 05:48:38 PM
Quote from: Byte on September 09, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
Bowser above Luigi?
Madness.
Is the only reason that Ness/Lucas are so low because of the stupid chain grab? If so, even though it's true, I hate seeing such amazing characters so low because people have to be asses and just mash Z or whatever you have grab set to.
and their recoveries are still ridiculously easy to kill themselves.
Underneath a stage they are SCREWED and you can still be an ass and jump in front of Ness's up B X_X;;
Which could possibly screw you over if your recovery sucks enough.
Once you get the hang of PK Thunder, it isn't that hard to recover. Why you would be under the stage is beyond me :P
He may have a reason, give me an example of how Ness or Lucas got under the stage Nayrman.
Back airs have fairly horizontal hitback, so that's a possibility. ANd it's still easy to jump in front of Ness's PK Thunder
Ness and Lucas get destroyed in competitive play, chain grab adds to that.
Their recovery is "meh" especially Ness and easy to gimp if you really wanted to.
Smash attacks are slow and therefore hard to kill with even though they have insane power.
Standard special is mostly useless because it can be interrupted by projectiles.
Recovery Down B is also mainly useless because when caught in a chain of projectiles (lets say lasers) it takes too much start up to catch any subsequent beams before your hit again. D:
I knew from the beginning that Meta Knight would be great. :) Especially when you learn to use his Dimensional Cape properly. (Not from the glitch)
Quote from: Daft Pink on September 16, 2008, 05:52:23 PM
I knew from the beginning that Meta Knight would be great. :) Especially when you learn to use his Dimensional Cape properly. (Not from the glitch)
You mean D.I.C.K.?
Quote from: Ridley on September 16, 2008, 05:53:14 PM
Quote from: Daft Pink on September 16, 2008, 05:52:23 PM
I knew from the beginning that Meta Knight would be great. :) Especially when you learn to use his Dimensional Cape properly. (Not from the glitch)
You mean D.I.C.K.?
He said not from the glitch....
The Dimensional Cape isn't THAT great without the glitch....but Metaknight is still the character than needs to be blatantly nerfed next game. X_X
Thats cause it's the easiest game ever made i just mash the b and a button till i win <.< god i want fable 2 to come out already.
Quote from: DocNess on September 17, 2008, 03:35:50 PM
Thats cause it's the easiest game ever made i just mash the b and a button till i win <.< god i want fable 2 to come out already.
Go play someone here, I'll be interested in the results.
I don't think Falcon should be the worst character... But then I can't think of anyone worse than him. >:(
There's a reason I never use Metaknight... I just think it requires no skill to play as him. He is overly broken, despite his light weight.
Attacks are blindingly quick, has insane killers, has a multi jump, the ability to glide twice, small body, and such high priority :| :|
*disappears for another month*
Quote from: QingXin on September 20, 2008, 12:01:03 PM
There's a reason I never use Metaknight... I just think it requires no skill to play as him. He is overly broken, despite his light weight.
Attacks are blindingly quick, has insane killers, has a multi jump, the ability to glide twice, small body, and such high priority :| :|
*disappears for another month*
And that's why you used him on Playat's match...
Quote from: wiiboychris on September 20, 2008, 09:37:36 PM
Quote from: QingXin on September 20, 2008, 12:01:03 PM
There's a reason I never use Metaknight... I just think it requires no skill to play as him. He is overly broken, despite his light weight.
Attacks are blindingly quick, has insane killers, has a multi jump, the ability to glide twice, small body, and such high priority :| :|
*disappears for another month*
And that's why you used him on Playat's match...
Wow, I didn't know that using a character in a single match meant anything.
"never" is an exaggeration genius.
Quote from: JrDude on September 22, 2008, 01:06:23 AM
Quote from: wiiboychris on September 20, 2008, 09:37:36 PM
Quote from: QingXin on September 20, 2008, 12:01:03 PM
There's a reason I never use Metaknight... I just think it requires no skill to play as him. He is overly broken, despite his light weight.
Attacks are blindingly quick, has insane killers, has a multi jump, the ability to glide twice, small body, and such high priority :| :|
*disappears for another month*
And that's why you used him on Playat's match...
Wow, I didn't know that using a character in a single match meant anything.
"never" is an exaggeration genius.
It's called "irony."
Quote from: wiiboychris on September 22, 2008, 10:20:46 PM
Quote from: JrDude on September 22, 2008, 01:06:23 AM
Quote from: wiiboychris on September 20, 2008, 09:37:36 PM
Quote from: QingXin on September 20, 2008, 12:01:03 PM
There's a reason I never use Metaknight... I just think it requires no skill to play as him. He is overly broken, despite his light weight.
Attacks are blindingly quick, has insane killers, has a multi jump, the ability to glide twice, small body, and such high priority :| :|
*disappears for another month*
And that's why you used him on Playat's match...
Wow, I didn't know that using a character in a single match meant anything.
"never" is an exaggeration genius.
It's called "irony."
What you used was irony, but what I was talking about is an exaggeration, like saying "I did ____ a million times"
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
Quote from: HTA on November 02, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
The longer the game is out and the characters being tested longer the more accurate the tier list will become.
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 07, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: HTA on November 02, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
The longer the game is out and the characters being tested longer the more accurate the tier list will become.
Brawls seems to have... less depth than Melee... but we'll see.
Quote from: HTA on November 08, 2008, 07:57:17 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 07, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: HTA on November 02, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
The longer the game is out and the characters being tested longer the more accurate the tier list will become.
Brawls seems to have... less depth than Melee... but we'll see.
cuz Nintendo has to make EVERYTHING "more accessable". Which I'm sure is code for taking all the cool stuff out of it and making the game playable with two buttons so even babies and old people can play it
Quote from: Nayrman on November 08, 2008, 08:19:40 AM
Quote from: HTA on November 08, 2008, 07:57:17 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 07, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: HTA on November 02, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
The longer the game is out and the characters being tested longer the more accurate the tier list will become.
Brawls seems to have... less depth than Melee... but we'll see.
cuz Nintendo has to make EVERYTHING "more accessable". Which I'm sure is code for taking all the cool stuff out of it and making the game playable with two buttons so even babies and old people can play it
Er...I don't think so.
Quote from: wiiboychris on November 08, 2008, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Nayrman on November 08, 2008, 08:19:40 AM
Quote from: HTA on November 08, 2008, 07:57:17 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 07, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: HTA on November 02, 2008, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on November 02, 2008, 07:09:00 AM
I agree with the top and high tiers mostly, but some low tier characters should be bumped up.
That would entail bumping some higher characters down.
So, if a character is low on the list tourney players must prove that they are better than the characters above them...
And for some that's going to be near impossible.
The longer the game is out and the characters being tested longer the more accurate the tier list will become.
Brawls seems to have... less depth than Melee... but we'll see.
cuz Nintendo has to make EVERYTHING "more accessable". Which I'm sure is code for taking all the cool stuff out of it and making the game playable with two buttons so even babies and old people can play it
Er...I don't think so.
I see what you're trying to say, but they only do that with games like wii music and wii sports, Brawl wasn't intended for babies or old people.
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Also, I'm not sure if I was seeing things, but wasn't Ike Low and Yoshi High?
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Boomerang. :)
Quote from: HTA on December 10, 2008, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Boomerang. :)
and meteor, and better recovery (even tho he is "countered" by lightness), and a faster arial game that easliy trounces Link's...
Quote from: HTA on December 10, 2008, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Boomerang. :)
That puzzles me even more. :O
- Short range
- Low power
The only thing that I see about it that's better than Link's is that it damages as it returns to TL. :P
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:51:59 PM
Quote from: HTA on December 10, 2008, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Boomerang. :)
That puzzles me even more. :O
- Short range
- Low power
The only thing that I see about it that's better than Link's is that it damages as it returns to TL. :P
wider hitboxes and does damage returning. The no damange but movement for Link's only hurts Link...
Quote from: Nayrman on December 10, 2008, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: HTA on December 10, 2008, 04:47:25 PM
Quote from: SSBBRAWLIN on December 10, 2008, 04:45:57 PM
The one question that will puzzle me for eternity.
How on earth did Toon Link rule over Link. >_>
Boomerang. :)
and meteor, and better recovery (even tho he is "countered" by lightness), and a faster arial game that easliy trounces Link's...
But that's one of the hazards of SD. You'd have to be 100% sure that you'll even land the hit.
I agree with you on the recovery though. He goes higher and farther than Link. Mainly due to his light weighted self.
Link's Boomerang is slow to get out, harder to maneuver for precise hitting, useless for spamming, and really the whirlwind is more harmful than helpful in my opinion. D:
Quote from: HTA on December 10, 2008, 05:44:57 PM
Link's Boomerang is slow to get out, harder to maneuver for precise hitting, useless for spamming, and really the whirlwind is more harmful than helpful in my opinion. D:
Yeah, Link's whirlwind doesn't seem to be hurting anyone but himself.
I forget that it can help others recover to the stage if used improperly.
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
I'm just waiting for the new, game-changing AT that will completely rewrite the tier list.
If Pivot Walking becomes useful in any way, Marth could get higher.
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
Too much lag on too many attacks and no priority on nearly everything.
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
:|
Quote from: Marth Xero on December 24, 2008, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
Too much lag on too many attacks and no priority on nearly everything.
Well he has some moves that are pretty good also what is with the indifference HTA? Why don't you go play Playat, Dawei or Zen when they use him?
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on December 24, 2008, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
Too much lag on too many attacks and no priority on nearly everything.
Well he has some moves that are pretty good also what is with the indifference HTA? Why don't you go play Playat, Cogs or Zen when they use him?
I have.
Its not that he's horrible, but I hardly think he's more than top of low tier.
Quote from: HTA on December 24, 2008, 01:18:27 PM
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: Marth Xero on December 24, 2008, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mutilator7 on December 19, 2008, 04:49:54 PM
Quote from: Insane Asylum on December 11, 2008, 10:22:07 PM
If it's any indication, the tier list makes me weep on the inside.
Because CF is dead last?
CF is a lot better than people give him credit for. It is just that people don't use him in tournies.
Too much lag on too many attacks and no priority on nearly everything.
Well he has some moves that are pretty good also what is with the indifference HTA? Why don't you go play Playat, Cogs or Zen when they use him?
I have.
Its not that he's horrible, but I hardly think he's more than top of low tier.
Yes but he has to be better than lowest tier.
Top of low at best... IMO.
Projectiles rape him, and I'm thinking Samus could floor CF due to her Z-air. (I'll test that theory later...)
Looking at it now, I'm also surprised Samus is so low on the ranks.
He is simply too slow in his move lag and leaves himself open most of the time if an aerial is missed.
And priority is a huge issue... but I don;t claim to know all the points in that area.
Quote from: HTA on December 24, 2008, 01:34:17 PM
Top of low at best... IMO.
Projectiles rape him, and I'm thinking Samus could floor CF due to her Z-air. (I'll test that theory later...)
Looking at it now, I'm also surprised Samus is so low on the ranks.
He is simply too slow in his move lag and leaves himself open most of the time if an aerial is missed.
And priority is a huge issue... but I don;t claim to know all the points in that area.
What really surorises me is that Ganondorf is higher than him.
All of Falcon's aerials can be auto-canceled.
Quote from: Ridley on December 24, 2008, 01:42:12 PM
Quote from: HTA on December 24, 2008, 01:34:17 PM
Top of low at best... IMO.
Projectiles rape him, and I'm thinking Samus could floor CF due to her Z-air. (I'll test that theory later...)
Looking at it now, I'm also surprised Samus is so low on the ranks.
He is simply too slow in his move lag and leaves himself open most of the time if an aerial is missed.
And priority is a huge issue... but I don;t claim to know all the points in that area.
What really surorises me is that Ganondorf is higher than him.
From one of the best in melee to the worst in brawl. I think time will play a rule in CF's character development, and ganondorf is better than you think.