MK Banned? Now featuring: Arguements about competitive play.

[HTA!]

So, if this board is going to stop with the posts...I have a final question...

Should Meta Knight be banned from tournaments, yes or not?

It seems the answer is "no" by far.

Maybe it IS possible to beat a pro MK, but that should take a lot of time since nobody seems to find a strategy to beat a pro.

Or I'm mistaking?

Its been done.
But its such an incredibly hard match-up, you have to e top of the top... suffice to say a very hard thing to accomplish.

Here's a comparison

M2K can beat anyone, not everyone can beat M2K (Of course, he would have to be sick that day, and have his A button not working, and only have the use of one eye)

[StarWindWizard7]

So, if this board is going to stop with the posts...I have a final question...

Should Meta Knight be banned from tournaments, yes or not?

It seems the answer is "no" by far.

Maybe it IS possible to beat a pro MK, but that should take a lot of time since nobody seems to find a strategy to beat a pro.

Or I'm mistaking?

Its been done.
But its such an incredibly hard match-up, you have to e top of the top... suffice to say a very hard thing to accomplish.

Here's a comparison

M2K can beat anyone, not everyone can beat M2K (Of course, he would have to be sick that day, and have his A button not working, and only have the use of one eye)

Seems like That would be the only way to make a fight Fair. :P

[tollhouse2006]

Brawl is unfair for a few reasons.

1. There are many more infinite's than in Melee (Only one or 2 if I remember correctly) making Ness and Lucas completely unusable in competitive play. DDD has standing infinite, not to mention an insane chain grab. Almost everyone can jab/projectile block. Wario is also raped by infinite's, and he is 8th on the tier list. Falco can rape you on a fresh stock via chain grab, and I'm of the opinion that he could win a match with only his blaster (unbelievably gay).

2. Lower speed lets the spammable moves, such as mach tornado or laser, harder to escape and easier to use in a match

3. There is a god tier. That is basically a travesty for a game that strives to level the playing field. MK is in a class of his own, with no other character even coming close to how much he dominates play.

4. Priority is either very high or very low, making some characters (MK and Snake) almost impossible to mount an offense against. When you attacks have 0% chance to hit the opponent, something is wrong.

5. Even with combo's gone, they are replaced with ridiculously powerful moves that take no time to execute and have barely any lag (MK's aerials, Snake's tilts, Numerous characters jabs)

6. Mind Games are in my opinion less useful. The slow pace of battle ruins any chance of pulling one over on your enemy, as there is simply too much time for them to see through what you were going to do. The increased speed really helped develop the mental aspect of smash, which has now been lost thanks to legions of high tier users and lower speed.

7. Tourney's are no longer a test of skill, but rather a test of who knows their top tiers more. It used to be that almost any character on the Melee Roster could feasibly win a tourney, or at least advance to the upper rounds. No more... I can almost guarantee that you will never see a G-dorf or C Falcon winning a tourney ever again. That sure sounds fair huh?

Now for an opinion. Lowered speed, and Brawl in general, seemed to suck the fun out of smash. No longer are the matches intense and tests of true skill. They are simply who can pick the better character for the match-up. Sure skill and advanced techs are still a huge part of the match, but pick anyone in the top tier and you instantly get a huge advantage over your opponent.

Who really cares about tiers.  Anybody can be competitive with any character.  And melee had it's downsides too but you never mentioned them.  The way I see it is that smash has always been unfair in some way and brawl's no different.  I agree about the chain grab and jab lock thing.  That is true.   

[QingXin]

Ummm... Am I the only one here who thinks Smash could actually be made into a "fair" game? o_o

[tollhouse2006]

Ummm... Am I the only one here who thinks Smash could actually be made into a "fair" game? o_o

It would be fair if people didn't spam or depend on jab locks and chain grabs and so on to win, but that's impossible to ask for.

[Nayrman]

You two are asking for way too much.
Fighting games are always going to be inherently "unfair" to an extent, but Smash can be WAY more fair than Brawl is.
Tollhouse, you're forgetting that compared to Melee, Brawl has a ludicrous amount of failures in terms of gameplay. Melee had it's share of problems, but nothing compared to Metaknight and the chaingrabs in Brawl. With the exception of possibly the incredibally low tier characters (and even then guys like Mewtwo and Bowser had good users), just about everyone still had a shot at winning a tournament. Brawl however, I'd be surprised to hear anyone other than the top six or seven on the tier list winning, because there isn't a reason to use anyone else seriously when guys like Metaknight, Snake, etc. just destroy everyone else...

[Ridley]

You two are asking for way too much.
Fighting games are always going to be inherently "unfair" to an extent, but Smash can be WAY more fair than Brawl is.
Tollhouse, you're forgetting that compared to Melee, Brawl has a ludicrous amount of failures in terms of gameplay. Melee had it's share of problems, but nothing compared to Metaknight and the chaingrabs in Brawl. With the exception of possibly the incredibally low tier characters (and even then guys like Mewtwo and Bowser had good users), just about everyone still had a shot at winning a tournament. Brawl however, I'd be surprised to hear anyone other than the top six or seven on the tier list winning, because there isn't a reason to use anyone else seriously when guys like Metaknight, Snake, etc. just destroy everyone else...

Actually if you get rid of metaknight, everyone is pretty evened out. Even Snake to an extent.

[Nayrman]

You two are asking for way too much.
Fighting games are always going to be inherently "unfair" to an extent, but Smash can be WAY more fair than Brawl is.
Tollhouse, you're forgetting that compared to Melee, Brawl has a ludicrous amount of failures in terms of gameplay. Melee had it's share of problems, but nothing compared to Metaknight and the chaingrabs in Brawl. With the exception of possibly the incredibally low tier characters (and even then guys like Mewtwo and Bowser had good users), just about everyone still had a shot at winning a tournament. Brawl however, I'd be surprised to hear anyone other than the top six or seven on the tier list winning, because there isn't a reason to use anyone else seriously when guys like Metaknight, Snake, etc. just destroy everyone else...

Actually if you get rid of metaknight, everyone is pretty evened out. Even Snake to an extent.

Snake is definatley more fair than Metaknight, although I think we can all agree he would still be overpowered.
At least he's feasibly beatable by coming up with the right strategy...

[Ridley]

You two are asking for way too much.
Fighting games are always going to be inherently "unfair" to an extent, but Smash can be WAY more fair than Brawl is.
Tollhouse, you're forgetting that compared to Melee, Brawl has a ludicrous amount of failures in terms of gameplay. Melee had it's share of problems, but nothing compared to Metaknight and the chaingrabs in Brawl. With the exception of possibly the incredibally low tier characters (and even then guys like Mewtwo and Bowser had good users), just about everyone still had a shot at winning a tournament. Brawl however, I'd be surprised to hear anyone other than the top six or seven on the tier list winning, because there isn't a reason to use anyone else seriously when guys like Metaknight, Snake, etc. just destroy everyone else...

Actually if you get rid of metaknight, everyone is pretty evened out. Even Snake to an extent.

Snake is definatley more fair than Metaknight, although I think we can all agree he would still be overpowered.
At least he's feasibly beatable by coming up with the right strategy...

Also I think the poll is in favor of keeping him because people who voted without thinking can't change their vote.

[HTA!]

Brawl is unfair for a few reasons.

1. There are many more infinite's than in Melee (Only one or 2 if I remember correctly) making Ness and Lucas completely unusable in competitive play. DDD has standing infinite, not to mention an insane chain grab. Almost everyone can jab/projectile block. Wario is also raped by infinite's, and he is 8th on the tier list. Falco can rape you on a fresh stock via chain grab, and I'm of the opinion that he could win a match with only his blaster (unbelievably gay).

2. Lower speed lets the spammable moves, such as mach tornado or laser, harder to escape and easier to use in a match

3. There is a god tier. That is basically a travesty for a game that strives to level the playing field. MK is in a class of his own, with no other character even coming close to how much he dominates play.

4. Priority is either very high or very low, making some characters (MK and Snake) almost impossible to mount an offense against. When you attacks have 0% chance to hit the opponent, something is wrong.

5. Even with combo's gone, they are replaced with ridiculously powerful moves that take no time to execute and have barely any lag (MK's aerials, Snake's tilts, Numerous characters jabs)

6. Mind Games are in my opinion less useful. The slow pace of battle ruins any chance of pulling one over on your enemy, as there is simply too much time for them to see through what you were going to do. The increased speed really helped develop the mental aspect of smash, which has now been lost thanks to legions of high tier users and lower speed.

7. Tourney's are no longer a test of skill, but rather a test of who knows their top tiers more. It used to be that almost any character on the Melee Roster could feasibly win a tourney, or at least advance to the upper rounds. No more... I can almost guarantee that you will never see a G-dorf or C Falcon winning a tourney ever again. That sure sounds fair huh?

Now for an opinion. Lowered speed, and Brawl in general, seemed to suck the fun out of smash. No longer are the matches intense and tests of true skill. They are simply who can pick the better character for the match-up. Sure skill and advanced techs are still a huge part of the match, but pick anyone in the top tier and you instantly get a huge advantage over your opponent.

Who really cares about tiers.  Anybody can be competitive with any character.  And melee had it's downsides too but you never mentioned them.  The way I see it is that smash has always been unfair in some way and brawl's no different.  I agree about the chain grab and jab lock thing.  That is true.   

Why would I try to defeat my own argument?
If tiers don't matter, then I dare you to fight a decent MK with C-Falcon. D:

[Dawei]

I kind of want to respond to Tollhouse's ludicrous statements, but by looking at his response to hta's, it wouldn't even be worth it.

I will say one thing though. If you are in a tournament, why would you play "fair"? Are you really so dumb as to blow money just because you don't want to be "cheap"? If you are, then you shouldn't even be in this conversation, since you have absolutely no grasp on competitive smash.

[tibar21]

I kind of want to respond to Tollhouse's ludicrous statements, but by looking at his response to hta's, it wouldn't even be worth it.

I will say one thing though. If you are in a tournament, why would you play "fair"? Are you really so dumb as to blow money just because you don't want to be "cheap"? If you are, then you shouldn't even be in this conversation, since you have absolutely no grasp on competitive smash.

I would of thought it would be more fun if everyone played fair. And you can be competive with other people that play fair too. Being competive doesn't nesecarly mean you have to be at the top level. Hardcore players are not the only competive ones. If all you do is rely on techs and chain grabs and poop to win then it'll probably make the game stale. I don't really care about tiers either. No one can tell me what characters I can't be good with. Sure its a bit harder to be good with Jigglypuff than Meta Knight but all it takes is extra practice.

[Nayrman]

I kind of want to respond to Tollhouse's ludicrous statements, but by looking at his response to hta's, it wouldn't even be worth it.

I will say one thing though. If you are in a tournament, why would you play "fair"? Are you really so dumb as to blow money just because you don't want to be "cheap"? If you are, then you shouldn't even be in this conversation, since you have absolutely no grasp on competitive smash.

I would of thought it would be more fun if everyone played fair. And you can be competive with other people that play fair too. Being competive doesn't nesecarly mean you have to be at the top level. Hardcore players are not the only competive ones. If all you do is rely on techs and chain grabs and s*** to win then it'll probably make the game stale. I don't really care about tiers either. No one can tell me what characters I can't be good with. Sure its a bit harder to be good with Jigglypuff than Meta Knight but all it takes is extra practice.

a pro Jigglypuff will never beat a pro Metaknight...
I think that's the point you're missing. Sure on casual play it doesn't really matter but against someone who's half decent unless you're very good you'll never beat him with a really low character X_X;;

[tibar21]

I kind of want to respond to Tollhouse's ludicrous statements, but by looking at his response to hta's, it wouldn't even be worth it.

I will say one thing though. If you are in a tournament, why would you play "fair"? Are you really so dumb as to blow money just because you don't want to be "cheap"? If you are, then you shouldn't even be in this conversation, since you have absolutely no grasp on competitive smash.

I would of thought it would be more fun if everyone played fair. And you can be competive with other people that play fair too. Being competive doesn't nesecarly mean you have to be at the top level. Hardcore players are not the only competive ones. If all you do is rely on techs and chain grabs and s*** to win then it'll probably make the game stale. I don't really care about tiers either. No one can tell me what characters I can't be good with. Sure its a bit harder to be good with Jigglypuff than Meta Knight but all it takes is extra practice.

a pro Jigglypuff will never beat a pro Metaknight...
I think that's the point you're missing. Sure on casual play it doesn't really matter but against someone who's half decent unless you're very good you'll never beat him with a really low character X_X;;

have you ever heard of such thing as extra effort or practice. Its hard but not not impossible.

[StarWindWizard7]

Nothing is impossible,
the thing is whether you practice constantly with Jiggly puff just to train to fight a very good MK player, regardless chances are you'll still lose.

J-puff for one has never been the type of character 1 would play to win in Tournaments anyway.
(I'm sure atleast, I don't dare set foot around situations like tournaments).
I mean, whens the last time you see a J-puff win? Pretty rarely if anything.

The point is, MK as HTA put it (and I agree), is in a class of his own.
You get to close to MK and he can just easily pull out a quick attack before you even get to close.
And this is from a J-Puff vs. MK status fight.

J-Puff is lighter then MK and can easily get KO'ed by MK's attacks (as well as any other character) >__>

Anyway, what I'm saying is that a person can train for as long/hard as they can, chances are if they go up against a decent enough MK, chances are MK will win. (it can be a close match) but statistically MK has
the advantage in every category. :(